I watched this whole thing. Even if you ignore the strong implication that there was something untoward going on with the Brazilian girl and her father, the whole thing was fundamentally eerie.
The one that made the most sense was the Dad who wanted to make money off his son, that I can understand.
But wait...why are you forcing your view of morality on these people? You evolved to see child abuse as "immoral," they evolved to see exploitation as "worthwhile." Two different evolved moralities, what gives you the right to throw stones at their morality?
Tough to escape the Moral Law written on your heart isn't it.
Hi John, if there is a moral law written on hearts, why aren't the abusers 'convicted'? Why aren't they ashamed? Maybe because there is no universal moral as you have inadvertantly demonstrated?
Reasoning and inference to avoid harm, placing a high value on minimizing harm is all you NEED at a minimum. In fact, there is evidence to show that organisms have evolved to minimize harm to each other. It increases the likelihood of successful outcomes for the group. Its one of those natural things that spans species. Its not sophisticated enough to be a universal moral. It has too many contextual exceptions.
As a former child who's parent's put on a stage to sing southern gospel music because of the "gift" that I had been given, all I can say is that watching this hurts. Many times these children are products of parents living vicariously through their children. Many times children "perform," because they think it pleases adults. In rural NC many years ago there was a buffalo ranch where various animals were displayed, some with unique capabilities and behaviors and people paid money to see these animal acts. One was called dancing chickens. Until the SPCA closed the place, these half starved chickens were kept in a pen and had been trained so that whenever they would hear music, they would dance. At the end of the song corn would fall out of a door and the chickens behavior was reinforced. The whole time the music was playing these chickens would not take their eye off of the little door where the corn would fall out. It was cruel.
Children who have to "do the dance" in order to feel they are winning the approval or love of people is just as cruel. Been there done that... got a t-shirt.
Post script, Children who grow up performing have double the risk of battling depression and suicide as an adult. According to my counselor, it is due to the body, at a very young age, constantly being fueled with high doses of adrenaline caused by the excitement of the performance.
This is TRULY a sad commentary on the state of child evangelist / child abuse. However, I have one comparison to make with the two American boys: Marjoe Gortner. The story of his life was made into a 1972 film called “Marjoe” (short for Mary and Joseph the parent’s of Jesus). The film’s description read:
“At the age of 3, Marjoe Gortner was already established in a highly lucrative career as a fully ordained fire-and-brimstone preacher in the Old Time Faith Church. On and off for 25 years, Marjoe traveled the country preaching hell fire and damnation and passing the collection basket just as his parents had taught him. This very controversial film, winner of the 1972 Academy Awards for Best Documentary, follows Marjoe during his last months of rock-style preaching before his retirement at the age of 28. When he is not leading enraptured congregations, Marjoe discusses his life as a con-man on the evangelical circuit and the ethics of his colleagues in the “religion business”.
This video is still out in DVD.
Since there is no examples of child evangelist in the Bible, I think Lee’s summation is very relevant.
With all due respect, this is a reflection of the larger problems of society.
This society does not care about children.
As a counselor to parents accused off child abuse, I have had more than one say they don't understand why they are in so much trouble...after all, they could have aborted the child.
The almost unrestricted use of abortion has affected the psyche of this country in a very damaging way.
As a counselor to parents accused off child abuse, I have had more than one say they don't understand why they are in so much trouble...after all, they could have aborted the child.
The almost unrestricted use of abortion has affected the psyche of this country in a very damaging way.
Yeah, child abuse in the US was unheard of before the 60's and 70's. And the countries with the lowest rates of child abuse all have outlawed abortion. And the countries with the highest rates of abortion have the worst rates of child abuse.
Oh, wait, that's all untrue. Maybe those abusive parents you counsel would choose any convenient justification for their behavior...
But wait...why are you forcing your view of morality on these people?
Are these parents in jail yet? No? Then I guess I am not forcing my view of morality upon them. If and when I can acheive sufficient social consensus with my morality, then I WILL force this particular point of view on them. Until then, I will argue to try to convince others of my morality.
If human morality was universal, it would have remained unchanged over time and space. It has not, so human morality cannot be universal. Honestly, how simple can you get?
Please don't attribute things to me that I don't claim.
But I will say this, and will go into it more later, that I think it is worse than it was.
Life has been devalued, and minorities have been fooled into eliminating more and more of themsselves from the gene pool.
And as for the parents, yes, some of them have been sentenced to jail time.
I merely counsel the accused, I don not handle their court case, so please do not read into my post.
I like good discussions, but if you think you are going to attack me because I am saying something that it not typical for an atheist, then don't bother. I won't waste my time on it; save that for theology sites.
Hugh, your original comments sounded just like a fundamentalist, and we see a lot of them here. Next time put a little context into your comments so there will be fewer misinterpretations of them.
"Yeah, child abuse in the US was unheard of before the 60's and 70's."
Huh? Am I reading this wrong? Abraham Lincoln did not go to his fathers funeral because of the abuse he suffered at the hand of the man. Abuse prior to the 60's and 70's was rampant. It was also accepted. Slavery was abusive. The difference is that our culture has become more ethical in the treatment of all people. Whenever abuse occurs today it sticks out as abnormal. Think the abuses of Abu Ghraib would have been even noticed in WWII? In Vietnam? Abortion and child abuse in the context of this you-tube video is a non sequitur.
Yes, you were reading it wrong. Keep reading to the next paragraph, which starts "Oh, wait, that's all untrue." I was pointing out the evidence that refutes Hugh's baseless assertion that child abuse is caused (at least in a significant part) by access to abortion.
Hugh, if you think I am going to refrain from lambasting ridiculous assertions based on limited anecdotes that are refuted by evidence solely because they come from an atheist, you haven't been reading me much. You claim that abuse is more prevelant because we allow unfettered abortion, yet what evidence points in that direction? Has child abuse increased since abortion was legalized? Is there a positive correlation of child abuse and access to abortion, either in different states in the Union or in different countries? The answer to both is no--in fact, it is the opposite. Your assertion is contradicted by the evidence, and I would be participating in this blog unfairly if I let it stand unchallenged solely because it came from an atheist.
As for the second part of my comment, I was quoting from and replying to john murphy from higher up on the thread, and that portion of the comment had nothing to do with you. I should have made it clearer who I was responding to in each part of the comment.
14 comments:
I watched this whole thing. Even if you ignore the strong implication that there was something untoward going on with the Brazilian girl and her father, the whole thing was fundamentally eerie.
The one that made the most sense was the Dad who wanted to make money off his son, that I can understand.
But wait...why are you forcing your view of morality on these people? You evolved to see child abuse as "immoral," they evolved to see exploitation as "worthwhile." Two different evolved moralities, what gives you the right to throw stones at their morality?
Tough to escape the Moral Law written on your heart isn't it.
First, John, do you believe that what is going on with these children is wrong?
Hi John,
if there is a moral law written on hearts, why aren't the abusers 'convicted'? Why aren't they ashamed? Maybe because there is no universal moral as you have inadvertantly demonstrated?
Reasoning and inference to avoid harm, placing a high value on minimizing harm is all you NEED at a minimum. In fact, there is evidence to show that organisms have evolved to minimize harm to each other. It increases the likelihood of successful outcomes for the group. Its one of those natural things that spans species. Its not sophisticated enough to be a universal moral. It has too many contextual exceptions.
As a former child who's parent's put on a stage to sing southern gospel music because of the "gift" that I had been given, all I can say is that watching this hurts.
Many times these children are products of parents living vicariously through their children. Many times children "perform," because they think it pleases adults.
In rural NC many years ago there was a buffalo ranch where various animals were displayed, some with unique capabilities and behaviors and people paid money to see these animal acts. One was called dancing chickens. Until the SPCA closed the place, these half starved chickens were kept in a pen and had been trained so that whenever they would hear music, they would dance. At the end of the song corn would fall out of a door and the chickens behavior was reinforced. The whole time the music was playing these chickens would not take their eye off of the little door where the corn would fall out. It was cruel.
Children who have to "do the dance" in order to feel they are winning the approval or love of people is just as cruel. Been there done that... got a t-shirt.
Post script, Children who grow up performing have double the risk of battling depression and suicide as an adult. According to my counselor, it is due to the body, at a very young age, constantly being fueled with high doses of adrenaline caused by the excitement of the performance.
This is TRULY a sad commentary on the state of child evangelist / child abuse. However, I have one comparison to make with the two American boys: Marjoe Gortner. The story of his life was made into a 1972 film called “Marjoe” (short for Mary and Joseph the parent’s of Jesus). The film’s description read:
“At the age of 3, Marjoe Gortner was already established in a highly lucrative career as a fully ordained fire-and-brimstone preacher in the Old Time Faith Church. On and off for 25 years, Marjoe traveled the country preaching hell fire and damnation and passing the collection basket just as his parents had taught him. This very controversial film, winner of the 1972 Academy Awards for Best Documentary, follows Marjoe during his last months of rock-style preaching before his retirement at the age of 28. When he is not leading enraptured congregations, Marjoe discusses his life as a con-man on the evangelical circuit and the ethics of his colleagues in the “religion business”.
This video is still out in DVD.
Since there is no examples of child evangelist in the Bible, I think Lee’s summation is very relevant.
With all due respect, this is a reflection of the larger problems of society.
This society does not care about children.
As a counselor to parents accused off child abuse, I have had more than one say they don't understand why they are in so much trouble...after all, they could have aborted the child.
The almost unrestricted use of abortion has affected the psyche of this country in a very damaging way.
Hugh McElroy
As a counselor to parents accused off child abuse, I have had more than one say they don't understand why they are in so much trouble...after all, they could have aborted the child.
The almost unrestricted use of abortion has affected the psyche of this country in a very damaging way.
Yeah, child abuse in the US was unheard of before the 60's and 70's. And the countries with the lowest rates of child abuse all have outlawed abortion. And the countries with the highest rates of abortion have the worst rates of child abuse.
Oh, wait, that's all untrue. Maybe those abusive parents you counsel would choose any convenient justification for their behavior...
But wait...why are you forcing your view of morality on these people?
Are these parents in jail yet? No? Then I guess I am not forcing my view of morality upon them. If and when I can acheive sufficient social consensus with my morality, then I WILL force this particular point of view on them. Until then, I will argue to try to convince others of my morality.
If human morality was universal, it would have remained unchanged over time and space. It has not, so human morality cannot be universal. Honestly, how simple can you get?
Why the sarcasm, Shygetz?
I never said there was not abuse before.
Please don't attribute things to me that I don't claim.
But I will say this, and will go into it more later, that I think it is worse than it was.
Life has been devalued, and minorities have been fooled into eliminating more and more of themsselves from the gene pool.
And as for the parents, yes, some of them have been sentenced to jail time.
I merely counsel the accused, I don not handle their court case, so please do not read into my post.
I like good discussions, but if you think you are going to attack me because I am saying something that it not typical for an atheist, then don't bother. I won't waste my time on it; save that for theology sites.
Hugh McElroy
Hugh, your original comments sounded just like a fundamentalist, and we see a lot of them here. Next time put a little context into your comments so there will be fewer misinterpretations of them.
Cheers.
Shyget
"Yeah, child abuse in the US was unheard of before the 60's and 70's."
Huh? Am I reading this wrong? Abraham Lincoln did not go to his fathers funeral because of the abuse he suffered at the hand of the man. Abuse prior to the 60's and 70's was rampant. It was also accepted. Slavery was abusive. The difference is that our culture has become more ethical in the treatment of all people. Whenever abuse occurs today it sticks out as abnormal. Think the abuses of Abu Ghraib would have been even noticed in WWII? In Vietnam?
Abortion and child abuse in the context of this you-tube video is a non sequitur.
Little Samuel Ledger has his own website:
http://www.thechurchatbrookhaven.org/
And YouTube page:
http://www.youtube.com/user/kpboutwell
Check it out.
Lee,
Yes, you were reading it wrong. Keep reading to the next paragraph, which starts "Oh, wait, that's all untrue." I was pointing out the evidence that refutes Hugh's baseless assertion that child abuse is caused (at least in a significant part) by access to abortion.
Hugh, if you think I am going to refrain from lambasting ridiculous assertions based on limited anecdotes that are refuted by evidence solely because they come from an atheist, you haven't been reading me much. You claim that abuse is more prevelant because we allow unfettered abortion, yet what evidence points in that direction? Has child abuse increased since abortion was legalized? Is there a positive correlation of child abuse and access to abortion, either in different states in the Union or in different countries? The answer to both is no--in fact, it is the opposite. Your assertion is contradicted by the evidence, and I would be participating in this blog unfairly if I let it stand unchallenged solely because it came from an atheist.
As for the second part of my comment, I was quoting from and replying to john murphy from higher up on the thread, and that portion of the comment had nothing to do with you. I should have made it clearer who I was responding to in each part of the comment.
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