Invitation for Comment: Where did they go?
Mankind has gotten better and better at astronomy over the past three centuries. We now have stunning images of vast spaces of the visible universe. Yet we probably see less than 5% of the matter that exists. One thing nobody has ever seen with a telescope is anything that looks like heaven.
The Bible, on the other hand, clearly shows us a heaven that is close to us, reachable by proximity to the clouds. God brings people up to him through the clouds, acts from within clouds, and is afraid of people who get too close to the clouds.
The first proximity event I'd like to bring up is the story of the tower of Babel. This is a tower being built by Nimrod, who the Bible doesn't accuse of wickedness or evil. Since it usually has no problem doing that, we can presume that Nimrod wasn't wicked or evil. Nimrod gets his people together and decides to build a tower (I imagine a ziggurat) out of bricks. Here I'll quote:
And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
This story suggests that Yahweh was concerned that people would invade heaven if they built a tall enough building, so he made it harder for them to communicate. His concern is obviously that the tower, if large enough could reach the divine realm that sits just above the clouds, and the tower would be a bridge to this, and much more permanent than just a ladder.
The next story I'll mention is of Elijah being taken to heaven. Elijah dries up a river, crosses on dry land across it with Elisha, "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
It's a good thing everything was made of fire. The temperature at 12,000 feet is usually below freezing. At 30000 feet it's below -35 C usually. But of course the deeper question is where Elijah went after he left the stratosphere. There's no oxygen to breathe at that point, and Elijah seemed to be a normal man getting into a normal chariot of fire, with normal horses made of fire. If Elijah never changed -- where is he now?
Apologists may say that God miracled Elijah to heaven. I can't disprove it. He obviously miracled him the the flaming horses. But why send the horses and chariot in the first place except to show off if you are gonna have to miracle him off well before 15000 feet. It seems illogical.
Finally we get to Jesus. Now again, it's quite clear that at his ascension he had a human body. That's why someone could bloody up their fingers by sticking them in his wounds. Yet again, he goes up into the sky. Where'd he go? Is heaven a place? If it is -- what direction is it? If it's not a place, why go up into the sky to get there?
As many of us know from personal experience and all of know from multiple measurements at multiple times, the sky is a pretty forbidding place. It's really really cold and it's hard to breathe. It's really the last place I'd want to ascend to unprotected.
The simplest explanation for all these is the obvious one. These are legends, not to be taken any more seriously than Odysseus and the Sirens, or Orpheus and Eurydice. It solves all the textual difficulties, and removes the burden of explanation of the mind of God. Atheists have been sternly warned by Dr. William Lane Craig not to do this, as it is the height of arrogance.
I invite comment from apologists who think they can explain this without guessing at the mind of God. If this task can't be done -- it does seem that John was well within the rights apologists hold for themselves when doing exegesis when he made his argument from the scope of the universe.
The Bible, on the other hand, clearly shows us a heaven that is close to us, reachable by proximity to the clouds. God brings people up to him through the clouds, acts from within clouds, and is afraid of people who get too close to the clouds.
The first proximity event I'd like to bring up is the story of the tower of Babel. This is a tower being built by Nimrod, who the Bible doesn't accuse of wickedness or evil. Since it usually has no problem doing that, we can presume that Nimrod wasn't wicked or evil. Nimrod gets his people together and decides to build a tower (I imagine a ziggurat) out of bricks. Here I'll quote:
And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
This story suggests that Yahweh was concerned that people would invade heaven if they built a tall enough building, so he made it harder for them to communicate. His concern is obviously that the tower, if large enough could reach the divine realm that sits just above the clouds, and the tower would be a bridge to this, and much more permanent than just a ladder.
The next story I'll mention is of Elijah being taken to heaven. Elijah dries up a river, crosses on dry land across it with Elisha, "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
It's a good thing everything was made of fire. The temperature at 12,000 feet is usually below freezing. At 30000 feet it's below -35 C usually. But of course the deeper question is where Elijah went after he left the stratosphere. There's no oxygen to breathe at that point, and Elijah seemed to be a normal man getting into a normal chariot of fire, with normal horses made of fire. If Elijah never changed -- where is he now?
Apologists may say that God miracled Elijah to heaven. I can't disprove it. He obviously miracled him the the flaming horses. But why send the horses and chariot in the first place except to show off if you are gonna have to miracle him off well before 15000 feet. It seems illogical.
Finally we get to Jesus. Now again, it's quite clear that at his ascension he had a human body. That's why someone could bloody up their fingers by sticking them in his wounds. Yet again, he goes up into the sky. Where'd he go? Is heaven a place? If it is -- what direction is it? If it's not a place, why go up into the sky to get there?
As many of us know from personal experience and all of know from multiple measurements at multiple times, the sky is a pretty forbidding place. It's really really cold and it's hard to breathe. It's really the last place I'd want to ascend to unprotected.
The simplest explanation for all these is the obvious one. These are legends, not to be taken any more seriously than Odysseus and the Sirens, or Orpheus and Eurydice. It solves all the textual difficulties, and removes the burden of explanation of the mind of God. Atheists have been sternly warned by Dr. William Lane Craig not to do this, as it is the height of arrogance.
I invite comment from apologists who think they can explain this without guessing at the mind of God. If this task can't be done -- it does seem that John was well within the rights apologists hold for themselves when doing exegesis when he made his argument from the scope of the universe.
55 comments:
evan- I think I can guess what apologists will say: that God is omnipotent, and anything which might seem impossible or illogical to us in the Bible is a miracle. That's just as simple as saying that these stories are legends, isn't it?
The tower of Babel is I think one of the most fascinating in the Bible.
Mankind is getting his stuff together, working together efficiently and successfully, and as John notes, apparently without any excess malice or evil. God takes one look at them and ruins it all. Why? Was god scared? that seems a bit strange for an omnipotent deity. He didn't appear to be angry, in fact given god's usual "Kill 'em all, let me sort them out" attitude in the OT, he seems quite merciful here.
It seems really from the bible account that god simply hates the idea of man becoming better than they are. This is similar to the very odd phrase he utters when he punishes Adam and Eve
"Then the LORD God said, "See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- 23therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken"
This seems another instance of god worrying about mankind improving themselves, becoming "like one of us" closer to a divine being.
God seems to be a petty bully here, desperate to keep mankind from the power he has.
Oddly enough this has a mirror in real life with the Vatican recently coming out very strongly against cloning, stem cell research and generally the whole field of biotechnology. Heaven forbid that we improve the lives of those on earth.
As a transhumanist, this is of great interest to me (the role of religion in suppressing life improving technology). When humans eventually adopt enough of our technology, whether it be biotech or cybernetics to be noticably non-human, what will the church do? How will religious prejudice be expressed against those of us who choose to alter our (god given?) selves?
Firstly, be honest with the text: the account of the tower of Babel makes no suggestion that God confounded the people's language because it was about to reach His habitation. The aim of the people wasn't to create a bridge between God and earth, it was to "make a name" for themselves.
Secondly, Elijah did go into the "heavens" but this word is the same Hebrew word for "air" in Genesis 1:30. Other then being taken in the sky, the rest is purely speculation. There's enough evidence however to prove Elijah was very much alive and on this earth after being carried away - he wrote a letter to king Joram in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15.
Thirdly, there's no mention of anyone "bloodying" up their fingers when touching the wounds of Christ. Regardless, and most importantly, Scripture makes it crystal clear that Christ was the only one who could, and did, ascend to heaven (John 3:13).
Jason, what textual differences are there between Elijah's ascension and Jesus's? I guess Jesus didn't have flaming horses and a flaming chariot, but they both had to get to the stratosphere.
Both are reported to have gone up into heaven. One in cloud and one in a whirlwind.
Even if you accept that Jesus is the only one, you do understand that the direction he is heading depends on the angular rotation of the earth? If he is disapparating like Harry Potter, there's no need for him to go into the sky at all. If he's going somewhere though, he has to reach escape velocity first.
IRT the tower of Babel, seriously, if all that people were doing wrong was making a name for themselves, why does God bother? Is he jealous? Is he a little kid kicking an anthill?
Okay, I'm sorry to be blunt, but this post is just ignorant. Grab a Bible and a lexicon and do some study about what the words actually mean before you jump to ill-informed conclusions.
John, how about you grab your Bible and your lexicon and you explain to me what flaming chariots and flaming horses do to take someone in a whirlwind up to heaven.
If heaven could be reached by flaming chariots and horses -- it's pretty close. If you have to get beamed there, why the chariots.
It's easy for you to name-call. How about explaining it for me?
Or is it your position that all Christians know the Hebrew and understand that this is all a myth?
Jason, what textual differences are there between Elijah's ascension and Jesus's? I guess Jesus didn't have flaming horses and a flaming chariot, but they both had to get to the stratosphere.
Mortal Elijah was taken into the sky via a whirlwind. Immortal Jesus was received into heaven. These are rather important textual differences. Then there's John 3:13 which puts the matter to rest.
Both are reported to have gone up into heaven. One in cloud and one in a whirlwind.
John 3:13. Elijah was taken up into the sky. Jesus was received into heaven to sit next to his Father.
Even if you accept that Jesus is the only one, you do understand that the direction he is heading depends on the angular rotation of the earth? If he is disapparating like Harry Potter, there's no need for him to go into the sky at all. If he's going somewhere though, he has to reach escape velocity first.
I'm confident God wasn't concerned about Christ reaching escape velocity. If God can raise someone from the dead, it's safe to assume He knows how to get someone off the planet safely.
IRT the tower of Babel, seriously, if all that people were doing wrong was making a name for themselves, why does God bother? Is he jealous? Is he a little kid kicking an anthill?
Read Isaiah 40 & 46.
I'm confident God wasn't concerned about Christ reaching escape velocity. If God can raise someone from the dead, it's safe to assume He knows how to get someone off the planet safely.
First -- what exact mechanism are you proposing for Jesus' transport?
Second. If Elijah went into the sky, where is he now?
First -- what exact mechanism are you proposing for Jesus' transport?
Er, the power of God.
Second. If Elijah went into the sky, where is he now?
Dead.
The Tower of Babel...
I read an interesting story once, long ago:
The tower gets higher and higher, until it's far above the clouds below, above the sun and the stars, I think. They reach a limit, though. They find that there's a "ceiling" of some sort that they run in to. The top of the sky. It's made of stone. Being clever humans, what do they do? Start tunneling up, of course.
The project continues, with communities of diggers climbing up the tower, going into the rock above, and boring tunnels up through it. They accidentally encounter great chambers of water which break open and flood the tunnel, only to drain out the bottom and rain down on the tower. They keep going.
Finally, many generations after the project was begun, the last group of engineers breaks through the final layer of stone on top of the sky, emerging into light and fresh air. Looking about themselves, they find that they are at the base of a great tower...
Evan~ Only you would write something this STUPID...and I mean that will all due respect.
I won't even waste my time on this one.
Thanks.
Well, obviously we solve the cold problem by being picked up in a chariot that is on fire. Which makes me wonder something, if hell is a lake of fire and brimstone, and chariots of fire come take you to heaven, where can I go that doesn't involve burning?
Malachi 4:5 says ""See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse."
Yet you think he's dead? Interesting.
Secondly on the Jesus thing, how does the power of God work? Does it first take Jesus to a given altitude before it beams him where heaven is? What clouds is he borne up into? When he is beamed is this beam something that works according to the laws of physics or are they suspended? What force is holding up Jesus in the sky, the water tension of the clouds, God's fingers or some other thing?
DSHB,
I imagine that answering these questions would be very difficult for you. So I am not at all surprised you choose not to.
Read Isaiah 40 & 46.
That took a bit of time for me to get to. BOY am I glad I did.
First, how do you explain this one:
Lift your eyes and look to the heavens:
Who created all these?
He who brings out the starry host one by one,
and calls them each by name.
Now, there are 100 billion stars in the Milky Way galaxy. There are at least 100 billion galaxies. So that is 10 to the 18th power stars.
Now there are 31 and a half million seconds in a year. If someone lived 100 years, they could call out 3.15 billion star's names.
To do one galaxy would take about 3,300 years.
To do all 100 billion galaxies would take longer than the universe has existed.
SOOOOOOO when people wonder what God does with his time, it's pretty clear that he's calling out the names of the stars and has little time to do anything else.
THANK YOU THANK YOU for showing me Isaiah 40. I had read it before I lost my faith, but now it seems so much more compelling.
Good job Evan. There's not much anyone can say to explain this nonsense. It would be interesting to hear people try though. But please, no indignant name calling just because you can't explain these myths. Questioning stupid things is not immoral or improper.
One note of interest, at least to me. I'm re-reading "Secrets of the Exodus" by Messod and Roger Sabbah. They contend that the only historically recorded exodus came as a result of the priests of Aten (the first monotheism recorded) and their supporters were removed from the city of Akhetaten, a city built by the order of Pharaoh Akhenaten. This city could be the basis for the Babel myth. As I recall, the Pharaoh brought in craftsmen, tradesmen, priests, women from everywhere and government representatives from the sphere of Egyptian influence. They all began to speak a common language that was a pidgin of sorts which made it easier for work, trade and government to proceed. The second in command and later Pharaoh Ay (the oldest version of the scriptures, the Aramaic Bible calls God Ay) who has charge of the whole land decided to return Egypt to a polytheistic nation after the death of Akhenaten when he was vizier of Tutankhamen. He ordered the exile of the Aten priests, as I said, and destroyed the brand new glorious city of Akhetaten. The myth is a veiled reference to this happening which is an historical event. Ay did not like the monotheists because the rest of the county (which he was in charge of) was being ignored and unfunded. He noticed that they even spoke their own language at the city of the Pharaoh and he dispersed them. They had built the grandest city in the world and it was to the glory of Aten the one, true god.
BTW, read psalms 104 which is very similar and topically in the same order as the hymn to Aten was written by Akhenaten.
p.s.
The biggest bombshell, and what makes it a great book, is the proof they give that the Hebrew alphabet was derived from hieroglyphics. Check it out and see what you think.
It’s a must read.
Evan said: Malachi 4:5 says...Yet you think he's dead? Interesting.
What does Malachi say about the current state of Elijah?
Secondly on the Jesus thing, how does the power of God work? Does it first take Jesus to a given altitude before it beams him where heaven is? What clouds is he borne up into? When he is beamed is this beam something that works according to the laws of physics or are they suspended? What force is holding up Jesus in the sky, the water tension of the clouds, God's fingers or some other thing?
Relevance?
THANK YOU THANK YOU for showing me Isaiah 40. I had read it before I lost my faith, but now it seems so much more compelling.
Isaiah 40 & 45 was in answer to your question about why God bothers with people trying to build a tower up to heaven.
Haven't read the book, but my hunch is that the Hebrew alphabet was derived from Phoenician.
Just a hunch.
What does Malachi say about the current state of Elijah?
Malachi says that Elijah will come back. We know from Ecclesiastes that the Hebrews of the OT did not believe that the dead would be resurrected.
For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. Therefore if Malachi felt that Elijah was dead, he would not have believed he would come back to earth, ipso facto.
As for the relevance of Jesus lifting up into the sky, if you believe that Heaven is above the visible dome of the earth then it makes sense for Jesus to rise up in the clouds and then disappear.
If you think that Heaven is some place other than that, there is no reason for Jesus to rise up into the clouds. Jesus can just beam.
Again although you don't want to admit it, the Bible was written by people who believed in a 3 story earth. We have oodles of evidence that there is NOT a 3 story earth. Heaven is not in the sky and Hell is not underground.
It is the responsibility of modern apologists to explain these texts in the light of those facts.
The fact that nobody is even willing to TRY to do so should expose those apologists to ridicule and scorn. The fact that it doesn't, and that someone like Harvey who is EAGER to dispute about evolution -- claiming that science supports a young earth -- will not even attempt to respond to this should show the essential bankruptcy of creationism.
My position is easy to defend. Jesus didn't raise up into heaven, there were no flaming horses, the tower of Babel was nothing compared to Sears Tower and so if it existed it was likely one of the ziggurats in Mesopotamia.
Yours is that some real person got onto a chariot made of fire. If you won't defend it, I can understand why you won't. If I am misunderstanding you, please clarify, but what I am mostly seeing is dismissal without engagement, which generally means the position being defended is indefensible.
SOOOOOOO when people wonder what God does with his time, it's pretty clear that he's calling out the names of the stars and has little time to do anything else.
C'mon evan, you know better than that. What part of "omnipotent" don't you understand? God can talk faster than Ken Ham on speed, so it's no problem for Him to get out those 10^18th names in two shakes of the Lamb's tail. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if every quark in the Universe has its own name, and God rapped them all out without breaking a sweat before He sat down to breakfast on the first Sunday.
Moving on: yep, it's as I predicted- miracles account for all the funny stuff. It's turtles all the way down, folks. I am a bit surprised that Dshb didn't even deign to grace us with his erudition, but just huffed and split. But that's life, I guess.
Malachi says that Elijah will come back.
It says God will send Elijah. That's it. It makes no comment about his current state of existence.
We know from Ecclesiastes that the Hebrews of the OT did not believe that the dead would be resurrected. For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
Hardly. Elijah raised a boy from the dead, so did Elisha. Isaiah 26 and Ezekiel 37 both allude to the dead being raised. The reference in Ecclesiastes is a commentary about the death state, not a description of the Israelite view of resurrection.
Therefore if Malachi felt that Elijah was dead, he would not have believed he would come back to earth, ipso facto.
You're then assuming Malachi believed in the immortality of the soul. I see no proof of this. Malachi, inspired by God, simply states that Elijah would be sent. How exactly this would happen isn't mentioned.
If you think that Heaven is some place other than that, there is no reason for Jesus to rise up into the clouds. Jesus can just beam.
Revelation 1:7 says Jesus will "come with the clouds". Jesus left the same way he will return. It is what it is. He could have grown wings and flew, God could have turned him into mist and floated him into the sky, the disciples could have constructed a catapult and launched him into space. But this isn't how it happened. You're arguing any irrelevant point.
Yours is that some real person got onto a chariot made of fire. If you won't defend it, I can understand why you won't. If I am misunderstanding you, please clarify, but what I am mostly seeing is dismissal without engagement, which generally means the position being defended is indefensible.
What's there to defend? Elijah was taken into the sky via a whirlwind, then wrote a letter to a king years later. John 3:3 says no man has ascended to heaven. Romans 5:12 says that death has come upon everyone because everyone has sinned.
This is what the text says. It doesn't get any clearer.
So Jason to clarify.
You are saying that God does whatever God does and your job is just to accept it and not understand it.
Yet you have to acknowledge that we know a lot about the sky and clouds now that were unknown to the writers of Acts, the books of Kings, and the book of Genesis.
Their stories are all perfectly sensible in a 3 story universe, but they make absolutely no sense now to the point where you are saying "Goddidit" and that's the extent of your explanation.
So you do acknowledge that chariots of fire and horses of fire and people being borne up into the clouds doesn't happen now right?
So Jason to clarify. You are saying that God does whatever God does and your job is just to accept it and not understand it.
No, what I'm doing, by using Biblical evidence, is correcting your misunderstanding of the tower of Babel, Elijah and Jesus
Yet you have to acknowledge that we know a lot about the sky and clouds now that were unknown to the writers of Acts, the books of Kings, and the book of Genesis.
Irrelevant to your topic. Elijah didn't wind up in space, etc. etc.
Their stories are all perfectly sensible in a 3 story universe, but they make absolutely no sense now to the point where you are saying "Goddidit" and that's the extent of your explanation.
Er, they make perfect sense. People were building a tower, Elijah was taken into the sky by a whirlwind, and Jesus was received into heaven. There's no need to complicate it (aka 'beaming').
So you do acknowledge that chariots of fire and horses of fire and people being borne up into the clouds doesn't happen now right?
No.
No, what I'm doing, by using Biblical evidence, is correcting your misunderstanding of the tower of Babel, Elijah and Jesus
Sorry, you have yet to change my understanding of anything. Look, you believe the Bible is right when it says a snake talked and a donkey talked. Yet you think the Bible is wrong when it says that Elijah is still alive. It's quite clear SOME of the writers of the Bible believed Elijah went to Heaven. Others did not believe it. They disagree, the Bible contradicts itself. It's not perfect, nobody would expect it to be.
The writers of the Bible believed in a 3 story universe. You haven't changed my mind a micron about that.
Irrelevant to your topic. Elijah didn't wind up in space, etc. etc.
How do you know so much about the fate of Elijah. Where in the Bible are you getting this knowledge from?
Er, they make perfect sense. People were building a tower, Elijah was taken into the sky by a whirlwind, and Jesus was received into heaven. There's no need to complicate it (aka 'beaming').
No, they make no sense. There's no reason for God to be jealous of people building a tower, as the many towers built since then show. He doesn't care about us building towers. You haven't even attempted to explain his motive. Elijah was taken into the sky by a flaming chariot. That's what the plain text shows, but you ignore it when you choose to. And Jesus stood on clouds that can't support the weight of a sparrow, yet you have no problem with that.
Finally you admit that you think people are currently being taken up into the sky by flaming chariots. Please show us some evidence for this.
Sorry, you have yet to change my understanding of anything. Look, you believe the Bible is right when it says a snake talked and a donkey talked. Yet you think the Bible is wrong when it says that Elijah is still alive.
The Bible doesn't say Elijah is still alive.
It's quite clear SOME of the writers of the Bible believed Elijah went to Heaven.
How is it clear? The only record of Elijah going to "heaven" is in 2 Kings and "heaven" is the Hebrew word for "sky". What other writer says Elijah is currently in heaven?
The writers of the Bible believed in a 3 story universe. You haven't changed my mind a micron about that.
That's because a 3 story universe isn't the topic.
How do you know so much about the fate of Elijah. Where in the Bible are you getting this knowledge from?
Elijah wrote a letter to king Joram after being taken away by a whirlwind. John 3:3 says no man has ascended to heaven. Romans 5:12 says that death has come upon everyone because everyone has sinned. This leads me to conclude that Elijah didn't go to heaven and that he wasn't immortal.
No, they make no sense. There's no reason for God to be jealous of people building a tower, as the many towers built since then show. He doesn't care about us building towers.
He cares when people are building towers to rival Him.
Elijah was taken into the sky by a flaming chariot. That's what the plain text shows, but you ignore it when you choose to.
2 Kings 2:11 - "...Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
And Jesus stood on clouds that can't support the weight of a sparrow, yet you have no problem with that.
Like I said, God can raise people from the dead. He's not concerned about the logistics of receiving someone into heaven. Neither am I.
Finally you admit that you think people are currently being taken up into the sky by flaming chariots. Please show us some evidence for this.
I admitted no such thing. Don't twist my words. I said I can't acknowledge that chariots of fire and horses of fire and people aren't being borne up into the clouds.
Jason, first perhaps I was unclear.
I said: So you do acknowledge that chariots of fire and horses of fire and people being borne up into the clouds doesn't happen now right?
And you said: No.
I take that no as saying, "No I do believe that right now people are getting on chariots of fire and being borne up into the clouds"
If I misunderstand you please clarify what your "no" meant in response to that question.
Secondly:
What exact role do you see for the chariot and horses of fire in the story of Elijah. Were they carrying someone else? Certainly the traditional Hebrew understanding is what I find here where it is stated: Then a fiery chariot, drawn by fiery horses, comes out of the sky and takes Elijah away to the heavens.
Thirdly:
If the Hebrews thought Elijah was dead, why do they set a place for him at every Seder and at every bris?
Fourthly:
Are you making a prediction that if I finance the building of a tower of any height, or a given specific height to rival God, he will keep it from being built? That seems easy to test.
Fifthly:
You say The only record of Elijah going to "heaven" is in 2 Kings and "heaven" is the Hebrew word for "sky". It's also the English word for sky in its plural form. It's also the Spanish word for sky. I know heaven is the sky. I'm asking you where you think heaven is since we modern post-scientific people who don't believe the 4th century legends of Palestine are literally true know it's not the sky.
Finally:
I recognize you don't care about how people get to heaven. But we know exactly how to get to the sky. Given that the only place the Bible places Heaven is in the sky, you have to explain why it's not there. Can you speculate where it is? How one gets there? Why it is necessary to rise to the clouds first on one's way?
I take that no as saying, "No I do believe that right now people are getting on chariots of fire and being borne up into the clouds" If I misunderstand you please clarify what your "no" meant in response to that question.
Let's not beat a dead horse. You originally said "So you do acknowledge that chariots of fire and horses of fire and people being borne up into the clouds doesn't happen now right?"
I said "no". And I say no because chariots of fire, et al might occur, I just have no way of knowing. Maybe there have been people who have been carried away by whirlwinds. I can't prove something hasn't happened at some point in history somewhere on this planet, thus, I can't acknowledge whether something like this definitively has or has not happened.
What exact role do you see for the chariot and horses of fire in the story of Elijah. Were they carrying someone else? Certainly the traditional Hebrew understanding is what I find here where it is stated: Then a fiery chariot, drawn by fiery horses, comes out of the sky and takes Elijah away to the heavens.
2 Kings 2:11 - "...Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." As for the role of chariot and horses, we're not told. The record simply indicates they appeared subsequent to the whirlwind.
If the Hebrews thought Elijah was dead, why do they set a place for him at every Seder and at every bris?
Because the Jews believe the appearance of Elijah will be a precursor to the appearance of Christ. However, this has nothing to do with Elijah being immortal.
Are you making a prediction that if I finance the building of a tower of any height, or a given specific height to rival God, he will keep it from being built? That seems easy to test.
The topic is the tower of Babel. If you're keen on starting up a new topic about building towers in the 21st century, do it elsewhere.
I'm asking you where you think heaven is since we modern post-scientific people who don't believe the 4th century legends of Palestine are literally true know it's not the sky.
No one knows where heaven is. All we do know is that it's "up there" somewhere since Jesus had to ascend to get there.
I recognize you don't care about how people get to heaven.
John 3:3. No one's been to heaven so naturally, I don't care how people get there.
But we know exactly how to get to the sky. Given that the only place the Bible places Heaven is in the sky, you have to explain why it's not there.
It is there.
Can you speculate where it is? How one gets there? Why it is necessary to rise to the clouds first on one's way?
1. Nope. 2. By being 'received' by God. 3. It's not necessary but as I've already mentioned, we're told that Jesus' arrival will be the same as his departure.
Good luck with that Jason. It amazes me that someone in the 21st century thinks that there is an invisible realm in the sky that no plane has ever flown into.
Jason said:
...chariots of fire, et al (sic) might occur, I just have no way of knowing. Maybe there have been people who have been carried away by whirlwinds. I can't prove something hasn't happened at some point in history somewhere on this planet, thus, I can't acknowledge (sic) whether something like this definitively has or has not happened.
Yet you do "acknowledge" (by which you evidently mean "allege") that things like this have happened "at some point in history somewhere on this planet", and since you support the allegations of such pedantically unscientific occurences as are found in the bible, I must also expect you to support arbitrary allegations of similar events "at some point in history somewhere on this planet" -- such as Zeus, unicorns, the Loch Ness Monster, etc.
You cannot excuse yourself from such claims without also excusing yourself from the same with regard to your bible, yet I fully expect you to categorically deny any such similar fairy tales, due only to the fact that they don't appear in that stupefyingly obtuse book.
As to your other claims and/or ignorance of the relevance of arguments made, I shall say that god was somehow against a relatively meaningless tower a few thousand years ago, but is perfectly happy to let us do as we please in the air and beyond today. This is perfectly relevant, and Evan's test is perfectly valid. If an Atheist benefactor proclaims a commission to build a tower of arbitrary height in defiance of any god (or even specifically your god), then we should expect your god to intervene, if indeed he exists.
Lastly, and at the danger of arguing too many points, I'd like to note the ridiculousness of your own position, and how you could have avoided considerable ridicule by merely admitting that you don't know where Elijah went, or why Jesus "ascended", and that neither did the writers in the bible. Admit that, and simply say that anything else is pure speculation, and be done with it.
When you go on like this in a vain attempt at defending the nontechnical authors of the bible by painstakingly defending each and every apparently contradicting statement, especially when they are all clearly unnecessary and counter-intuitive from the view of any modern scientifically-minded person, well... You're only hurting your cause.
Not that I want to help you, but come on.
--
Stan
Good luck with that Jason. It amazes me that someone in the 21st century thinks that there is an invisible realm in the sky that no plane has ever flown into.
No one's ever flown a plane into God but as far as I'm aware, this hasn't been a terribly effective argument against the existence of God.
What amazes me is how people continue to try and claim that someone other then Christ was given immortality and ascended to heaven when the text is crystal clear that both are incorrect.
Stan said: Yet you do "acknowledge" (by which you evidently mean "allege") that things like this have happened "at some point in history somewhere on this planet"...such as Zeus, unicorns, the Loch Ness Monster, etc.
I’m prepared to discuss Scripture, not Zeus.
You cannot excuse yourself from such claims without also excusing yourself from the same with regard to your bible, yet I fully expect you to categorically deny any such similar fairy tales, due only to the fact that they don't appear in that stupefyingly obtuse book.
I’m not interested in “such claims”. This topic is entitled “Where did they go?". Evan has put forward claims regarding the tower of Babel, Elijah and Christ, all of which I’ve shown to be incorrect. If you’ve got something relevant to add to the argument about where the Bible says they went, do so.
As to your other claims and/or ignorance of the relevance of arguments made, I shall say that god was somehow against a relatively meaningless tower a few thousand years ago, but is perfectly happy to let us do as we please in the air and beyond today. This is perfectly relevant, and Evan's test is perfectly valid.
Great.
If an Atheist benefactor proclaims a commission to build a tower of arbitrary height in defiance of any god (or even specifically your god), then we should expect your god to intervene, if indeed he exists.
Were the builders of the tower of Babel atheists?
Lastly, and at the danger of arguing too many points, I'd like to note the ridiculousness of your own position, and how you could have avoided considerable ridicule by merely admitting that you don't know where Elijah went, or why Jesus "ascended", and that neither did the writers in the bible. Admit that, and simply say that anything else is pure speculation, and be done with it.
Elijah went into the sky, then he wrote a letter to king Joram a few years later. John 3:3 says no one has ascended to heaven. Romans 5:12 says that death has come upon everyone because everyone has sinned. Scripture doesn’t say where Elijah went but Scripture does say where he didn’t go.
When you go on like this in a vain attempt at defending the nontechnical authors of the bible by painstakingly defending each and every apparently contradicting statement, especially when they are all clearly unnecessary and counter-intuitive from the view of any modern scientifically-minded person, well... You're only hurting your cause.
I’m not required to defend anything. Evan’s made a number of claims that I’ve shown to be erroneous. I don’t care if you believe in God or not, the Bible doesn’t say Elijah is immortal or that he ascended to God’s abode or that Jesus beamed up or that the tower of Babel was a bridge between the earth and the divine realm.
Wow, great argument. Gosh, I guess if we have'nt seen it with a telescope it must not exist. Now that you've "proven" that heaven does'nt exist, please contact the scientific community and tell them that no dimensions exist beyond the ones we can prove with a telescope. Here, I'll even provide the forum for you to debunk the physics freaks with
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=8274
Thanks for debunking that one for me /sarcasm off
I’m not required to defend anything. Evan’s made a number of claims that I’ve shown to be erroneous. I don’t care if you believe in God or not, the Bible doesn’t say Elijah is immortal or that he ascended to God’s abode or that Jesus beamed up or that the tower of Babel was a bridge between the earth and the divine realm.
You're right, you're not only not required to defend anything, you choose exactly which extremely narrow points you will defend to the exclusion of all others.
My claim is not specific to facts in the Bible. My claim is that the Bible is a myth. The claim that the Bible is a myth is well-documented.
Your claim is that the Bible is true. You believe it is true not just in the mythic, legendary sense that the majority of textual scholars believe in, but actually true. You believe that God sends flaming chariots with flaming horses and then uses a whirlwind anyway. You believe God capriciously acts to destroy human projects on a whim, and you believe that God is a cheap David Copperfield-type showman, raising people up to the clouds for no good reason because he can.
Yet you adduce no evidence to support this set of beliefs except what you subjectively determine. You subjectively decide how to interpret and what you need to believe to maintain your standard of non-contradiction in the text.
Other believers in the same text believe other things about it. I think believers who accept the mythic structure are closer to the truth than you, but I think the best stance is to accept the whole thing as myth and legend and to live in the modern era with modern beliefs informed by modern evidence.
But one thing you can't argue is that your explanation is powerful or leads to predictions that will be fulfilled.
In the narrow sense of the schizophrenic who can't logically be proven out of his belief that the government has microscopic bugs in all the trash cans all over the world, you can't be proven out of your belief.
But it's a constricted, small world you choose to live in. The world I live in is part of a vast universe of extreme age and complexity far too multifarious and fascinating to be summed up in any one book and certainly more interesting than the legends of the Palestinians from the 5th century BCE to the 3rd century CE.
Wow, great argument. Gosh, I guess if we have'nt seen it with a telescope it must not exist. Now that you've "proven" that heaven does'nt exist, please contact the scientific community and tell them that no dimensions exist beyond the ones we can prove with a telescope. Here, I'll even provide the forum for you to debunk the physics freaks with
Obtuse reference aside -- the argument is not that the telescope can see everything. The argument is that we know what's in the sky, and heaven's not there. If you read the text of course, you see that I quite explicitly point out at the very beginning of the text that we see a small percentage of the universe.
But of course, it's in your interest not to engage with flaming chariots, flaming horses, God's fear of towers and people standing on clouds.
It's also a rough argument to make that the authors of the Bible didn't believe in a 3 story universe.
So enjoy yourself with your dismissal of an argument not made.
Evan said: You're right, you're not only not required to defend anything, you choose exactly which extremely narrow points you will defend to the exclusion of all others.
Which is ironic because the narrow point is actually you reading “heaven” and assuming it’s talking about space. There’s no reason to assume Elijah was taken up into God’s abode to live forever since the account doesn’t say this. We find out later in Scripture that no man has ascended to heaven and that death has passed onto everyone since everyone has sinned. This leads to one, indelible conclusion: That Elijah didn’t go to God’s abode and, like everyone else before him, eventually died.
My claim is not specific to facts in the Bible. My claim is that the Bible is a myth. The claim that the Bible is a myth is well-documented.
Your claim is that Elijah left the stratosphere in a chariot of fire and ended up in sub-zero temperatures without oxygen. This is wrong since the Bible makes no such claim.
Your claim is that the Bible is true.
Irrelevant. If an atheist tells another atheist that the Bible says Eve ate a grapefruit given to her by a gorilla, it doesn’t matter if the Bible is true or not – this isn’t what the text says.
You believe that God sends flaming chariots with flaming horses and then uses a whirlwind anyway. You believe God capriciously acts to destroy human projects on a whim, and you believe that God is a cheap David Copperfield-type showman, raising people up to the clouds for no good reason because he can.
These are empty accusations. I’ve addressed these issues already and you’re choosing to ignore them.
Yet you adduce no evidence to support this set of beliefs except what you subjectively determine. You subjectively decide how to interpret and what you need to believe to maintain your standard of non-contradiction in the text.
You said: “Elijah was taken into the sky by a flaming chariot. That's what the plain text shows, but you ignore it when you choose to.”
2 Kings 2:11 - "...Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
What does the plain text actually show, Evan? How was Elijah taken into the sky?
Your claim is that Elijah left the stratosphere in a chariot of fire and ended up in sub-zero temperatures without oxygen. This is wrong since the Bible makes no such claim.
No that's why we are arguing at cross purposes.
I think Elijah probably never lived. He is either a legend or a myth. There never was an Elijah. I think that it is quite obvious I believe this from my original post.
YOU are the one who thinks God takes people for rides. If your narrow viewpoint is that God sends chariots to wait for someone and then takes them for rides in whirlwinds, far be it from me to try to explain what you believe to you.
If I said that I sent someone a limo and then took them on the road to Denver -- the plain text of what I was saying was clear.
That you can't see that says a lot about you.
No that's why we are arguing at cross purposes.
You certainly assumed/suggested Elijah left the stratosphere in your original post. Are you denying as such?
I think Elijah probably never lived. He is either a legend or a myth. There never was an Elijah. I think that it is quite obvious I believe this from my original post.
If Elijah never lived, why bother arguing whether or not the Bible says he went to heaven?
YOU are the one who thinks God takes people for rides. If your narrow viewpoint is that God sends chariots to wait for someone and then takes them for rides in whirlwinds, far be it from me to try to explain what you believe to you.
Like myself, no Christian is asking an atheist to explain what they believe. But if you're going to make incorrect statements about what the Bible says about something, we're obliged to let you know.
If I said that I sent someone a limo and then took them on the road to Denver -- the plain text of what I was saying was clear. That you can't see that says a lot about you.
Don't avoid the question. I'll pose it again:
You said: “Elijah was taken into the sky by a flaming chariot. That's what the plain text shows, but you ignore it when you choose to.”
2 Kings 2:11 - "...Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
What does the plain text actually show, Evan? How was Elijah taken into the sky?
Jason I know this is hard for you.
My post is to point out that the Bible is a legend. The whole purpose of this blog is to show that the Bible is a legend. If you haven't figured that out, I invite you to look at some other posts.
You're more than confirming the legendary status of the Bible by your answers but you knock yourself out with that.
The reason I talk about the stratosphere is clear. It is not compatible with human life. Therefore legends about people going up to it in chariots are just like that of Icarus going up to touch the sun -- not literally true.
So here is some modern English with a modern English story and I want you to tell me the clear meaning of the text:
A runway appeared in front of them with a Blackhawk helicopter parked on it which separated Elijah from Elisha; and Elijah flew up into the sky.
Reading this sentence, do you believe that Elijah flapped his arms? Or do you believe he got in the helicopter? I'm curious.
Jason, just one thing. The word "heaven" as used in the Bible meant the sky. God lived in the sky. See Brown, Driver and Briggs Lexicon.
[שָׁמַי n.m. Dt 33:28 only pl. שָׁמַ֫יִם421 (Sta§ 324a) heavens, sky (NH id.; visible heavens, sky.
Do your own concordance study (here's a sample of the same word through to 2 Kings):
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. H8064
Gen 1:8 God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. H8064
Gen 1:9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. H8064
Gen 1:14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; H8064
Gen 1:15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. H8064
Gen 1:17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, H8064
Gen 1:20 Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.” H8064
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. H8064
Gen 2:4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven. H8064, H8064
Gen 6:17 “Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish. H8064
Gen 7:19 The water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered. H8064
Gen 11:4 They said, “Come, let us build for ourselves a city, and a tower whose top will reach into heaven, and let us make for ourselves a name, otherwise we will be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.” H8064
Gen 14:19 He blessed him and said, “Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; H8064
Gen 14:22 Abram said to the king of Sodom, “I have sworn to the Lord God Most High, possessor of heaven and earth, H8064
Gen 15:5 And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” H8064
Gen 19:24 Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven, H8064
Gen 21:17 God heard the lad crying; and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter with you, Hagar? Do not fear, for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. H8064
Gen 22:11 But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” H8064
Gen 22:15 Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, H8064
Gen 22:17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. H8064
Gen 24:3 and I will make you swear by the Lord, the God of heaven and the God of earth, that you shall not take a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I live, H8064
Gen 24:7 “The Lord, the God of heaven, who took me from my father’s house and from the land of my birth, and who spoke to me and who swore to me, saying, ‘To your descendants I will give this land,’ He will send His angel before you, and you will take a wife for my son from there. H8064
Gen 26:4 “I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; H8064
Gen 27:28 Now may God give you of the dew of heaven, And of the fatness of the earth, And an abundance of grain and new wine; H8064
Gen 27:39 Then Isaac his father answered and said to him, “Behold, away from the fertility of the earth shall be your dwelling, And away from the dew of heaven from above. H8064
Gen 28:12 He had a dream, and behold, a ladder was set on the earth with its top reaching to heaven; and behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. H8064
Gen 28:17 He was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.” H8064
Gen 49:25 From the God of your father who helps you, And by the Almighty who blesses you With blessings of heaven above, Blessings of the deep that lies beneath, Blessings of the breasts and of the womb. H8064
Exod 16:4 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day’s portion every day, that I may test them, whether or not they will walk in My instruction. H8064
Exod 17:14 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write this in a book as a memorial and recite it to Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven.” H8064
Exod 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. H8064
Exod 20:11 “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy. H8064
Exod 20:22 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven. H8064
Exod 31:17 “It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.” H8064
Exod 32:13 “Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants to whom You swore by Yourself, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heavens, and all this land of which I have spoken I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’ ” H8064
Deut 1:10 ‘The Lord your God has multiplied you, and behold, you are this day like the stars of heaven in number. H8064
Deut 1:28 ‘Where can we go up? Our brethren have made our hearts melt, saying, “The people are bigger and taller than we; the cities are large and fortified to heaven. And besides, we saw the sons of the Anakim there.” ’ H8064
Deut 2:25 ‘This day I will begin to put the dread and fear of you upon the peoples everywhere under the heavens, who, when they hear the report of you, will tremble and be in anguish because of you.’ H8064
Deut 3:24 ‘O Lord God, You have begun to show Your servant Your greatness and Your strong hand; for what god is there in heaven or on earth who can do such works and mighty acts as Yours? H8064
Deut 4:11 “You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the very heart of the heavens: darkness, cloud and thick gloom. H8064
Deut 4:19 “And beware not to lift up your eyes to heaven and see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, and be drawn away and worship them and serve them, those which the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven. H8064, H8064, H8064
Deut 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that you will surely perish quickly from the land where you are going over the Jordan to possess it. You shall not live long on it, but will be utterly destroyed. H8064
Deut 4:32 “Indeed, ask now concerning the former days which were before you, since the day that God created man on the earth, and inquire from one end of the heavens to the other. Has anything been done like this great thing, or has anything been heard like it? H8064
Deut 4:36 “Out of the heavens He let you hear His voice to discipline you; and on earth He let you see His great fire, and you heard His words from the midst of the fire. H8064
Deut 4:39 “Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other. H8064
Deut 5:8 ‘You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. H8064
Deut 7:24 “He will deliver their kings into your hand so that you will make their name perish from under heaven; no man will be able to stand before you until you have destroyed them. H8064
Deut 9:1 “Hear, O Israel! You are crossing over the Jordan today to go in to dispossess nations greater and mightier than you, great cities fortified to heaven, H8064
Deut 9:14 ‘Let Me alone, that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven; and I will make of you a nation mightier and greater than they.’ H8064
Deut 10:14 “Behold, to the Lord your God belong heaven and the highest heavens, the earth and all that is in it. H8064, H8064
Deut 10:22 “Your fathers went down to Egypt seventy persons in all, and now the Lord your God has made you as numerous as the stars of heaven. H8064
Deut 11:11 “But the land into which you are about to cross to possess it, a land of hills and valleys, drinks water from the rain of heaven, H8064
Deut 11:17 “Or the anger of the Lord will be kindled against you, and He will shut up the heavens so that there will be no rain and the ground will not yield its fruit; and you will perish quickly from the good land which the Lord is giving you. H8064
Deut 11:21 so that your days and the days of your sons may be multiplied on the land which the Lord swore to your fathers to give them, as long as the heavens remain above the earth. H8064
Deut 25:19 “Therefore it shall come about when the Lord your God has given you rest from all your surrounding enemies, in the land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance to possess, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven; you must not forget. H8064
Deut 26:15 ‘Look down from Your holy habitation, from heaven, and bless Your people Israel, and the ground which You have given us, a land flowing with milk and honey, as You swore to our fathers.’ H8064
Deut 28:12 “The Lord will open for you His good storehouse, the heavens, to give rain to your land in its season and to bless all the work of your hand; and you shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow. H8064
Deut 28:23 “The heaven which is over your head shall be bronze, and the earth which is under you, iron. H8064
Deut 28:24 “The Lord will make the rain of your land powder and dust; from heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed. H8064
Deut 28:62 “Then you shall be left few in number, whereas you were as numerous as the stars of heaven, because you did not obey the Lord your God. H8064
Deut 29:20 “The Lord shall never be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the Lord and His jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse which is written in this book will rest on him, and the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven. H8064
Deut 30:12 “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ H8064, H8064
Deut 30:19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, H8064
Deut 31:28 “Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their hearing and call the heavens and the earth to witness against them. H8064
Deut 32:1 “Give ear, O heavens, and let me speak; And let the earth hear the words of my mouth. H8064
Deut 32:40 ‘Indeed, I lift up My hand to heaven, And say, as I live forever, H8064
Deut 33:13 Of Joseph he said, “Blessed of the Lord be his land, With the choice things of heaven, with the dew, And from the deep lying beneath, H8064
Deut 33:26 “There is none like the God of Jeshurun, Who rides the heavens to your help, And through the skies in His majesty. H8064
Deut 33:28 “So Israel dwells in security, The fountain of Jacob secluded, In a land of grain and new wine; His heavens also drop down dew. H8064
Josh 2:11 “When we heard it, our hearts melted and no courage remained in any man any longer because of you; for the Lord your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath. H8064
Josh 10:11 As they fled from before Israel, while they were at the descent of Beth-horon, the Lord threw large stones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died; there were more who died from the hailstones than those whom the sons of Israel killed with the sword. H8064
Judg 5:4 “Lord, when You went out from Seir, When You marched from the field of Edom, The earth quaked, the heavens also dripped, Even the clouds dripped water. H8064
Judg 5:20 “The stars fought from heaven, From their courses they fought against Sisera. H8064
Judg 13:20 For it came about when the flame went up from the altar toward heaven, that the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar. When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. H8064
Judg 20:40 But when the cloud began to rise from the city in a column of smoke, Benjamin looked behind them; and behold, the whole city was going up in smoke to heaven. H8064
1 Sam 2:10 “Those who contend with the Lord will be shattered; Against them He will thunder in the heavens, The Lord will judge the ends of the earth; And He will give strength to His king, And will exalt the horn of His anointed.” H8064
1 Sam 5:12 And the men who did not die were smitten with tumors and the cry of the city went up to heaven. H8064
2 Sam 18:9 Now Absalom happened to meet the servants of David. For Absalom was riding on his mule, and the mule went under the thick branches of a great oak. And his head caught fast in the oak, so he was left hanging between heaven and earth, while the mule that was under him kept going. H8064
2 Sam 22:8 “Then the earth shook and quaked, The foundations of heaven were trembling And were shaken, because He was angry. H8064
2 Sam 22:10 “He bowed the heavens also, and came down With thick darkness under His feet. H8064
2 Sam 22:14 “The Lord thundered from heaven, And the Most High uttered His voice. H8064
1 Kings 8:22 Then Solomon stood before the altar of the Lord in the presence of all the assembly of Israel and spread out his hands toward heaven. H8064
1 Kings 8:23 He said, “O Lord, the God of Israel, there is no God like You in heaven above or on earth beneath, keeping covenant and showing lovingkindness to Your servants who walk before You with all their heart, H8064
1 Kings 8:27 “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built! H8064, H8064
1 Kings 8:30 “Listen to the supplication of Your servant and of Your people Israel, when they pray toward this place; hear in heaven Your dwelling place; hear and forgive. H8064
1 Kings 8:32 then hear in heaven and act and judge Your servants, condemning the wicked by bringing his way on his own head and justifying the righteous by giving him according to his righteousness. H8064
1 Kings 8:34 then hear in heaven, and forgive the sin of Your people Israel, and bring them back to the land which You gave to their fathers. H8064
1 Kings 8:35 “When the heavens are shut up and there is no rain, because they have sinned against You, and they pray toward this place and confess Your name and turn from their sin when You afflict them, H8064
1 Kings 8:36 then hear in heaven and forgive the sin of Your servants and of Your people Israel, indeed, teach them the good way in which they should walk. And send rain on Your land, which You have given Your people for an inheritance. H8064
1 Kings 8:39 then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive and act and render to each according to all his ways, whose heart You know, for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men, H8064
1 Kings 8:43 hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and do according to all for which the foreigner calls to You, in order that all the peoples of the earth may know Your name, to fear You, as do Your people Israel, and that they may know that this house which I have built is called by Your name. H8064
1 Kings 8:45 then hear in heaven their prayer and their supplication, and maintain their cause. H8064
1 Kings 8:49 then hear their prayer and their supplication in heaven Your dwelling place, and maintain their cause, H8064
1 Kings 8:54 When Solomon had finished praying this entire prayer and supplication to the Lord, he arose from before the altar of the Lord, from kneeling on his knees with his hands spread toward heaven. H8064
1 Kings 14:11 “Anyone belonging to Jeroboam who dies in the city the dogs will eat. And he who dies in the field the birds of the heavens will eat; for the Lord has spoken it.” ’ H8064
1 Kings 16:4 “Anyone of Baasha who dies in the city the dogs will eat, and anyone of his who dies in the field the birds of the heavens will eat.” H8064
1 Kings 21:24 “The one belonging to Ahab, who dies in the city, the dogs will eat, and the one who dies in the field the birds of heaven will eat.” H8064
1 Kings 22:19 Micaiah said, “Therefore, hear the word of the Lord. I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left. H8064
2 Kings 1:10 Elijah replied to the captain of fifty, “If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty.” Then fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty. H8064, H8064
2 Kings 1:12 Elijah replied to them, “If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty.” Then the fire of God came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty. H8064, H8064
2 Kings 1:14 “Behold fire came down from heaven and consumed the first two captains of fifty with their fifties; but now let my life be precious in your sight.” H8064
2 Kings 2:1 And it came about when the Lord was about to take up Elijah by a whirlwind to heaven, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. H8064
2 Kings 2:11 As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven. H8064
2 Kings 7:2 The royal officer on whose hand the king was leaning answered the man of God and said, “Behold, if the Lord should make windows in heaven, could this thing be?” Then he said, “Behold, you will see it with your own eyes, but you will not eat of it.” H8064
2 Kings 7:19 Then the royal officer answered the man of God and said, “Now behold, if the Lord should make windows in heaven, could such a thing be?” And he said, “Behold, you will see it with your own eyes, but you will not eat of it.” H8064
2 Kings 14:27 The Lord did not say that He would blot out the name of Israel from under heaven, but He saved them by the hand of Jeroboam the son of Joash. H8064
2 Kings 17:16 They forsook all the commandments of the Lord their God and made for themselves molten images, even two calves, and made an Asherah and worshiped all the host of heaven and served Baal. H8064
2 Kings 19:15 Hezekiah prayed before the Lord and said, “O Lord, the God of Israel, who are enthroned above the cherubim, You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth. H8064
2 Kings 21:3 For he rebuilt the high places which Hezekiah his father had destroyed; and he erected altars for Baal and made an Asherah, as Ahab king of Israel had done, and worshiped all the host of heaven and served them. H8064
2 Kings 21:5 For he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the Lord. H8064
2 Kings 23:4 Then the king commanded Hilkiah the high priest and the priests of the second order and the doorkeepers, to bring out of the temple of the Lord all the vessels that were made for Baal, for Asherah, and for all the host of heaven; and he burned them outside Jerusalem in the fields of the Kidron, and carried their ashes to Bethel. H8064
2 Kings 23:5 He did away with the idolatrous priests whom the kings of Judah had appointed to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah and in the surrounding area of Jerusalem, also those who burned incense to Baal, to the sun and to the moon and to the constellations and to all the host of heaven. H8064
Evan said: The reason I talk about the stratosphere is clear. It is not compatible with human life. Therefore legends about people going up to it in chariots are just like that of Icarus going up to touch the sun -- not literally true.
Elijah wasn't taken into the stratosphere. He also didn't go up to it in a chariot of fire. If you're going to make a claim about the Bible being legend, at least get your facts straight first.
So here is some modern English with a modern English story and I want you to tell me the clear meaning of the text
Avoidance at its finest. The Bible says "...Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." What exactly do you find confusing about how Elijah went into the sky? What does the text say?
John said: The word "heaven" as used in the Bible meant the sky. God lived in the sky. See Brown, Driver and Briggs Lexicon.
That copy and paste job really wasn’t necessary. The lexicon says "heaven" is used as:
heaven, heavens, visible heavens, sky, as abode of the stars, as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc, Heaven (as the abode of God)
It naturally all depends on the context. When the context is ambiguous, we look elsewhere for evidence. John 3:3 settles the matter. As does John 1:18, 1 John 4:12 and Ezekiel 18:4, Romans 3:9,23, Romans 5:12, Romans 6:23, James 1:15.
No one has been to heaven, no one has seen God, everyone has sinned, everyone has died.
Elijah is no exception.
Jason, your understanding of heaven is wrong. You are taking the results of modern astronomy and reading them back into the Bible. But this is not what the Bible says, since everything has a context. Take something out of its original context and you change the original meaning.
Cheers.
"God swept Elijah off the face of the earth into His very presence."
Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. (1983-c1985). The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures (1:540). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.
Of course, this meant heaven, the sky.
I am not a fan of argumentum ad populam as I have always felt that it was not sufficient.
However, when arguing over plain text meanings, I do believe it is useful to see what the majority reading would be.
Jason go ahead and click here
and tell me what you see.
Thanks.
John said: Jason, your understanding of heaven is wrong. You are taking the results of modern astronomy and reading them back into the Bible. But this is not what the Bible says, since everything has a context. Take something out of its original context and you change the original meaning.
It's not wrong. The Israelites knew that birds flew in the heavens, they knew the sun and stars were in the heavens, the knew God was in the heavens, they knew Elijah was taken up into the heavens, etc. etc. Like many words, "heaven" has multiple meanings which the context dictates. I don't see what the issue is.
"God swept Elijah off the face of the earth into His very presence..Of course, this meant heaven, the sky.
John 1:18, John 3:3, 1 John 4:12 and Ezekiel 18:4, Romans 3:9,23, Romans 5:12, Romans 6:23, James 1:15.
Evan,
You still have yet to answer the question:
"...Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2 Kings 2:11)
According to the plain text, how did Elijah go into the sky?
Jason, I can see you cannot learn anything from us at all. You know what's true. You're here to teach us, because we are all wrong. There is nothing we can say that you would consider otherwise. As far as you're concerned we're of the devil and we're trying to deceive you. So you're on guard. You distrust us to tell you anything. You're doing battle for Jesus, testing your skills against error and deception.
Okay. Then open your Bible and do your own study, okay?
Jason, I can see you cannot learn anything from us at all. You know what's true. You're here to teach us, because we are all wrong.
John, what does John 3:3 say and how do you think it relates to Elijah ascending to Heaven? What about Romans 5:12 - how do you justify this verse in light of Elijah's apparent immortality? Or John 1:18 - is Elijah walking around in Heaven with his eyes closed...?
There is nothing we can say that you would consider otherwise.
Does Scripture say Elijah went up into the sky in a whirlwind or a chariot of fire? We're using the same book - it's one or the other.
As far as you're concerned we're of the devil and we're trying to deceive you. So you're on guard. You distrust us to tell you anything. You're doing battle for Jesus, testing your skills against error and deception.
Does Scripture state the tower of Babel was being built as a permanent bridge between this earth and the divine realm to replace a ladder? Let's test your honesty :)
Okay. Then open your Bible and do your own study, okay?
That's the spirit! Right then, Elijah couldn't have gone to Heaven because the Bible says no man has ascended to heaven. Elijah can't still be alive because the Bible says sin and death has passed to all men. Hm, this would mean Evan's wrong...
Of course, the supposition that the Bible is inconsistent with itself has probably never occurred to you, nor will you even allow yourself to entertain such a possiblity, especially if I suggest it.
So we've reached a dead end.
See ya round.
Jason did you even click on the link to see how it is possible for him to be taken up in a whirlwind riding in a chariot of flame being pulled by horses of flame?
Of course you did.
But that answer destroys your position because you realize that is a silly thing to believe, just like you can't give any explanation for God's action at Babel or for why Jesus is hiding in the sky for 2 millenia before coming back.
Yet you fixate on this narrow idea of the whirlwind as if somehow this totemic power of yours to say there was a chariot but Elijah didn't rid e on it means all your points are right, the Bible is not a myth and you can sleep easy.
I agree with John about futility in this context. But some part of you must be aware of the weakness of your argument and your inability to make a coherent defense of it. I hope that part of you begins an earnest dialog with the rest of you.
Jason did you even click on the link to see how it is possible for him to be taken up in a whirlwind riding in a chariot of flame being pulled by horses of flame? Of course you did.
2 Kings 2:11 - "...Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." According to the PLAIN TEXT, how did Elijah go into the sky?
But that answer destroys your position because you realize that is a silly thing to believe, just like you can't give any explanation for God's action at Babel...
I didn't know I was expected to give an explanation. You originally said it was to build a bridge between the earth and divine realm. What part of Genesis 10 mentions this...?
....or for why Jesus is hiding in the sky for 2 millenia before coming back.
What gives you the impression he's hiding?
Yet you fixate on this narrow idea of the whirlwind as if somehow this totemic power of yours to say there was a chariot but Elijah didn't ride on it means all your points are right, the Bible is not a myth and you can sleep easy.
Tiresome and irrelevant. You were the one who made the initial claims, not myself. Elijah didn't go to heaven and he's not immortal. You've offered no Scriptural evidence saying as such and, like John, instead rely on commentaries, links, and the voice of others to speak for you.
I agree with John about futility in this context. But some part of you must be aware of the weakness of your argument and your inability to make a coherent defense of it.
This is your topic, Evan. I don't need to defend anything. Jesus didn't beam up, Elijah wasn't given immortality, and the tower of Babel wasn't built to replace a ladder.
John said: Of course, the supposition that the Bible is inconsistent with itself has probably never occurred to you, nor will you even allow yourself to entertain such a possiblity, especially if I suggest it.
It occurs to me often. But, like many others who have gone before you, you think throwing around this criticism is enough to debunk Christianity. Unfortunately, it's not. So until you can rationalize John 3:3, et al in light of the claims made here about Elijah going to Heaven, I have no reason to take your word about the words of the Bible.
For better or for worse, it seems that this thread has become the faithful observance of Proverbs 26: 4-5
On the one hand, participants such as myself effectively follow verse 4: "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself."
And on the other, participants such as Evan and John effectively follow verse 5: "Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes."
I'm sure glad we can count on the bible to remain clear on these things... At least Jason was kind enough to maintain his type-cast role throughout the dialogue.
--
Stan
Stan,
What do you think the text says in terms of how exactly Elijah went up into the sky: via whirlwind or via chariot of fire?
There's only one answer and it's not a difficult one.
In regards to the tower of Babel, these ancient men were not trying to build a bridge to heaven, as the common poor translation of this story might suggest. They were building a tower with the heavens in the top, meaning they ascended into the top of the interior of the tower and would view the paintings of the constellations that they had drawn on the walls there. They were astrologers worshipping the creation rather than the Creator. That was what God was upset with. He wanted man to spread out over the earth, not stay just in Mesopatamia where the tower was located. That is why He confused their languages.
In regards to Elijah or Jesus ascending into heaven through space
not having air to breathe: If God could cause them to overcome gravity without mechanical devices,
God could keep them breathing and protected while ascending. Besides, it appears they only were seen to ascend within our atmosphere, and that for the sake of those watching. Once out of sight, God would have transported them instantly to Heaven.
In regards to Heaven's distance from earth, and telescopes not having seen it yet, some have said there is a bright light in the northern star direction they think could be heaven. As Heaven is on a spiritual level, it could be very close to earth, and undetectable to natural means. If God wants to cloak it from unbelievers & even believers until the proper time, man would never see it, whether using telescopes, or even traveling by rocket right through it.
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