Natural Theology for Chimps

It's long been just understood that humans are unique among all animals in their capacity to engage in altruism, the expenditure of energy and or resources to aid others who are not closely related or otherwise capable of providing reciprocal value. A mother duck will act injured and try to distract an approaching predator away from her ducklings, an unselfish, and possibly sacrificial act, ostensibly, but we understand that this is not really altruistic in the intended sense; her efforts align neatly with the imperative for her offspring (and thus her genes) to survive. In other cases, we observe that some animal species engage in sharing, but this too is accounted for as "self-interested sharing". Sharing food from a kill with others in the group creates a context for reciprocity, and allows the successful hunter who shares to participate in the successful kills of others in the group when he is hungry and did not manage a kill on his own.

Altruism, though, is a kind of shibboleth for humans, and particularly for Christians. Our "better angels" have always been a key distinction for humans, an unbridgeable ontological chasm between the rest of creation, and man, endowed by God with the imago dei. Christian writers from Paul in the first century to C.S. Lewis in the 20th century have made much of this unique sense of man, of which altruism was a distinguishing sign. Man not only knew God was his creator intuitively just by surveying the world around him, man had an innate moral conscience, a built in sense of ought that was utterly intractable as a matter of biology. Christians commonly wonder, bemused at the thought, how evolution could account for something so... self-defeating as selfless charity and self sacrifice. Humans, for instance, send money, food and medicine to the other side of the world, to aid people they've never met, never will meet, and couldn't be more perfect strangers, genetically or otherwise. What's the selective imperative for that, they demand.

This is an important point for Christians, as Christ is understood to be a kind of apotheosis of this idea. God is supposed to have became flesh and sacrificed himself through no fault of his own, perfect in his being, in need of nothing, just giving of himself as a reprieve to (believing) man because that is his nature. Jesus instructed those who listened to love their enemies, another rendering of altruism, becoming less, being vulnerable in services of a higher good on the Christian view. Modern apologists rely heavily on the "moral argument", the idea that man cannot account for his moral sense, or moral convictions without positing God as creator, divinely provisioning them. It's just unthinkable, in contrast, that man would evolve in an impersonal universe with this innate moral sense, in their view.

What do we make, then, of research like this study done last year which investigated and compared the altruistic capabilities and tendencies of chimpanzees and human children? Here's the author's summary of the research:
Debates about altruism are often based on the assumption that it is either unique to humans or else the human version differs from that of other animals in important ways. Thus, only humans are supposed to act on behalf of others, even toward genetically unrelated individuals, without personal gain, at a cost to themselves. Studies investigating such behaviors in nonhuman primates, especially our close relative the chimpanzee, form an important contribution to this debate. Here we present experimental evidence that chimpanzees act altruistically toward genetically unrelated conspecifics. In addition, in two comparative experiments, we found that both chimpanzees and human infants helped altruistically, regardless of any expectation of reward, even when some effort was required, and even when the recipient was an unfamiliar individual—all features previously thought to be unique to humans. The evolutionary roots of human altruism may thus go deeper than previously thought, reaching as far back as the last common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees.
(emphasis mine)

There are (at least) two important implications of this kind of finding. First, it assaults the ancient shibboleth, the distinction of man as uniquely equipped and aware in the enterprise of altruism. To be sure, the experiment does not find chimpanzees organizing global relief efforts for men or monkeys if far off lands, and by no means would we mistake these findings for some kind of altruism in chimps that places them in parity with humans, by quality or quantity of their altruism. But here you have a structured set of tests that show that our closest relatives manifest behaviors of the kind that has always put man alone on one side of the "moral chasm", with every other living thing on the other. Now, it seems, in light of recent investigations, that maybe we need to make some room on our side of the moral divide for our chimpanzee cousins (and who knows who else might get added to the list).

Second, its hard to read the article and not be struck by the similarities demonstrated between chimps and small (human) children. In both cases, when the researcher doesn't demonstrate distress, chimps and kids aren't distressed either, and don't help out, as ostensibly no help is needed. When the researcher sends clear signals that they need help, help that the chimp or kid might render, they do, much more often then when no "need-state" is in view. We humans, being humans, intuitively understand this; if someone is having trouble, you ought to consider helping, even if there's no reward in view, immediately or ever. As the study affirms, this isn't something we must be taught in class to develop, but something that is innate at some low level.

That's not strange to most humans. But it is strange to see the same kind of response from chimpanzees when your worldview says that that "ought" can only come from God, and can only come to man. For the chimp who has perfectly nothing to gain (on the caricatured view of evolution as seen by most Christians) in helping someone reach something just beyond their grasp, whence the "ought" that prods them to help? Does God spare a little moral sense, sense unto altruism, even if in rudimentary form, for the chimp?

If so, it's a spotty application. Chimpanzees are notorious for their inclination for infanticide, the brutal killing of infants in the group, sometimes resulting in cannibalism of the young as a follow up to the frenzy (see here, for example). If there is some kind of natural theology for chimps, it seems much more compartmentalized that it is even for (allegedly) fallen, depraved humans. I won't even bother to recount the illustrious sex life of the average chimp, Google that up some time if you are not aware and inclined to think just maybe God dished out a helping of the same sense of "objective moral values" he designed for man, to use a favorite (if problematic) term from William Lane Craig.

Infanticide and sexual promiscuity the likes which might make Larry Flynt blanch aren't a problem from a naturalistic standpoint. There are both plausible (and to increasingly evidentially supported) explanations for such features of chimp behavior, and no "moral chasm" to bridge. Man is a moral being and capable of ethical reasoning in ways that no other animal is, as best we can tell. But while we stand apart, we stand apart by degree and by circumstance on the naturalistic view. For the Christian, man stands apart in kind, in essence. If we are to find, as this study suggests, that that degree isn't nearly so different from our closest genetic relatives, it's interesting and informative, but it fits the model. Chimps and man shared a common ancestor some time long ago, and the discovery of chimp altruism just points us back to our common heritage, a developmental history where we shared the "proto-ethics" that later developed into the concrete forms we see in chimps and humans today.

On the Christian view, though, it's hard to know what to make of such findings. There's always the trusty "common design" hobby horse to trot out whenever parallels and isomorphisms are identified in biology between disparate species. But common design, weak as it is, just utterly fails in this case, as mankind is sui generis in terms of his moral conscience, per Christianity, a "bespoke design" as a British friend recently called it. The sensus divinitatus is what makes man different from all other creatures for the Christian, and it is this that man draws upon, even and especially the unregenerate man in acting on moral impulses.

This is why morality as a matter of biological evolution is flatly, unequivocally rejected by Christianity. If morality emerges as the output of evolution, then it's as available to the chimp or the dolphin as it is to man. It's different for the same reasons the species themselves are different: they occupy different ecological niches, and have unique paths that brought them where they are as social animals. The more we learn though, the more the evidence accumulates that works right against the "moral chasm", against the sensus divinitatus, and toward the idea that morality fits right into the unifying principles and dynamics of evolution. If morality is supported as an integral part of the impersonal biological processes of man's development, one of the load-bearing beams of Christian apologetics, and the appeal of Christianity itself, falls apart.

The Warneken et al study is not the final word, of course, but just a piece of the puzzle. Chimps being helpful, even at some cost, without a basis for reciprocity or any kind of compensation, doesn't quite rise to the commitments of say, a Mother Teresa (Hitchens' objections to her notwithstanding). It's representative of the "pebbles" that are ever accumulating into what has grown now to be a significant pile of data that supports the idea that the "moral instinct", or the "moral grammar" as Marc Hauser would call it (with a hat tip to Chomsky), is a natural byproduct of evolution. No imago dei, no sensus divinitatus provisioned by a supernatural deity needed. A very good amount of the moral finger-wagging by Christian apologists depends on this message: you can't be moral without God. Or, more recently, a slightly more sophisticated revision: you can be moral, but you can't justify your morality without God. The more we learn, the more clearly plausible and evident becomes the picture of man as a moral being by virtue of his evolutionary biology.

So long as man is the only "altruist" -- the only one on the "moral" side of the moral chasm -- that's not a big problem for Christianity. A theistic evolutionist can nod at all the evidence for man developing a moral sense in the context of evolution. In her view, God is working, invisibly, behind the scenes, pulling invisible strings to steer man's nature toward its proper, intended moral constitution. But the identification of that kind of moral development, the emergence of even such sublime features as moral, conscious altruism in other animals, is problematic. That kind of evidence is a disconfirmation of the idea that man is unique, alone in his moral endowments. If we find emergent morality and ethics in other species of the very same kind we find more fully developed in man, the chasm is bridged, and this works strongly against the idea that man is ontologically distinct from the rest of life on earth.

Natural theology for chimps is a problem for the Christian worldview.

72 comments:

Larry Hamelin said...

Humans, for instance, send money, food and medicine to the other side of the world, to aid people they've never met, never will meet, and couldn't be more perfect strangers, genetically or otherwise. What's the selective imperative for that, they demand.

The idea that evolution predicts that every feature of an organism has a direct and specific adaptive function is the adaptationist falllacy, and is just as incorrect when adopted by scientists as by the religious.

Evolution abounds with features that have no adaptive purpose (Stephen Jay Gould used the example of hyena's unusual reproductive anatomy), but are rather a secondary consequence of some other adaptive feature.

In human beings, the existence of altruistic morality can easily be seen as a secondary consequence of intelligence in general. We're not all that altruistic, and individuals' altruism rarely rises to the level of threatening their lives or reproductive success. We spend on altruism only a tiny fraction of what we gain from intelligence.

In any event, we have good information about altruism going back only to the beginning of recorded history, much too short a time to rule out even the hypothesis that altruism is a recent innovation (in evolutionary terms) that has not yet been selected for or against.

BahramtheRed said...

I disagree with barefoot. I think it's an outreach of empathy. Empathy being one of nessicary social evolutions to keep groups toghter and with less conflict. Couple that with the intellect to know what suffering is and you want to help.

Back to the orginal post; Don't dolphins show this as well when they rescue swimmers and despoit them on or near the beach? I seriously doubt that it's some kind of desire to get the people out of the water or why wouldn't they grab every swimmer?

Oh and dogs. I've got a couple stories about them. Mine once defended a women he didn't even know from another dog while running free (he ran out the back door).

He wasn't agressive, didn't pick fights, and let my brothers cat bully him most the time. Yet he fought for a stranger, the only reason we know this is she called us with the number of his collar.

Anonymous said...

barefoot bum,
the tit-for-tat strategy is generally a dominant strategy in most cases, is naturally occurring and it has some appearance of altruism at first glance, but in the context of game theory can be shown to be mutually beneficial though self-centered.

so when you say that "its much too short a time to rule out even the hypothesis that altruism is a recent innovation (in evolutionary terms) that has not yet been selected for or against."

is asking the wrong question. "apparent altruism" or "incidental altruism" (my terms) is a naturally occurring dominant strategy with good reason to believe that it has always been.

Antipelagian said...

If we were truly following in imperative to preserve our genes, why would someone (or something) while in the reproductive prime of their life die for their offspring when said offspring could be easily replaced?

Many have died protecting just one of many offspring...only to leave the rest orphans.

Would you say that is worse to die saving one child while leaving the rest orphans? Essentially, the parent is likely to lose all of his genetic information if the offspring are left to themselves.

Perhaps it's simply a matter of "inelligence"? The parent choosing to orphan the offspring is just dumb...or he just can't transcend his genetic make-up...

The implications of it purely a case of genetics logically leads to solipsism...atheists tend to not mind that...I guess it's always better to find "freedom" through freedom from self.

Anonymous said...

antipelagian,
you are overlooking the law of large numbers. if a few die giving thier lives for their offspring and some of the offspring die, most will not give thier lives for thier offspring and most offspring will not die.

the net result is a positive.

goprairie said...

my thinking is that this altruism is merely an extension of the instinct to protect self, family, social circle - most things that do not make sense to preserve the individual and their direct offspring are merely 'excess'. those individuals with the strongest sense of helping were the most successful at helping the tribe that was going to ensure the success of their reproduction. there was no benifit to the helping bleeding out past the tribe, but it was a natural consequence of having the strongest helping instinct. there is an instinct to store and hoard and those with the strongest instinct might store way more in some years but only enough in some years, while those with just average storing instinct might store too little too often. so evolution favors those with a stronger instinct than is needed most of the time. but it is not neccesary that every individual help or store food but only that a few in every tribe do so. which is pretty much what you see- some empathetic helpful people - if god gave it to us as a universal 'human' trait, wouldn't ALL humans show it universally? instead, it fits about enough humans that it needs to to ensure that helping happens. in many 'higher' species. sort of at a predictable rate and within predictable species according to evolution providing for variety to cover the bell curve of conditions, and not universally human and absent elsewhere as predicted by a god scenario.

Rick said...

I am amazed how often large amounts of $$ are spent to research and "discover" something that is already known by experience of the common man. Every pet owner already knows that their pet reacts to their distress with a "helpful" response, which is a large part of the appeal of pet ownership. And stories of even sacrificial pet responses abound, so I'm not sure what new "finding" the study you posted has really produced. If it is to lay claim that chimps belong on the imago deo side of man, then the same would have to be said of cats, dogs, dolphins, and even birds.

"This is why morality as a matter of biological evolution is flatly, unequivocally rejected by Christianity."

If the subject of this sentence is "evolution" and not "morality", then I agree with you; the idea that man and chimp are of common descent is flatly rejected.

Now, a Christian knows that God had brought all the beasts of the field and birds of the air before Adam to see what he would name them, and to see if any would be a suitable helper for man. (Gen 2:18-20) This means that God must have created these creatures with the capacity to be "helpful". And indeed, this is exactly what we see. So, in this sense, the "finding" of the posted research only confirms the truth of God's Word.

Much of your argument seems take the position that "altruism == imago deo", that Christians agree with this, and so Christians "now" have a problem.

In fact, God's Word does not give us a definition of what aspect of God's image that was uniquely imprinted in man. However a Christian also believes that ALL CREATION bears testimony to God in some respect or other (Rom 1:20). So, perhaps if you could provide references to support your thinking of the Christian position, that would help this discussion.

Rick said...

Barefoot:"We're not all that altruistic, and individuals' altruism rarely rises to the level of threatening their lives or reproductive success."

I don't think you would have much luck convincing my son, a U.S. Marine, that this statement is true. Nor any of this buddies.

Evan said...

AP, do you have statistics on how many actual events per 1000 humans in their reproductive years per year actually sacrifice their lives for their own offspring?

My guess (I have no such statistics) is that it is far less than .01 per 1000.

There are diseases that are obviously harmful to reproduction that are that common and we explain them as maladaptive. You fall into the trap that barefoot is describing when you say that all of life's breadth and depth must be explained by adaptation. There are certainly characteristics in all populations of organisms that use one evolved strategy in a way that is maladaptive for the individual but may be beneficial for the group as a whole.

For example, when it comes to cholera, the blood type AB is very protective. However type AB cannot breed true. Even when two people with type AB are bred together only 1/2 of their children will be AB. So in places where cholera is endemic we tend to see more people of type A and B, less type O and a larger proportion of type AB blood. The hard part to explain is that people with type B are actually more susceptible to cholera.

In addition, it appears that people with the gene for cystic fibrosis are less susceptible to cholera as well.

So in a population where exposure to cholera is high, under the theory of neo-Darwinian selection, there will always be a mix of people who are of average risk (type A and O), people who are at high risk (type B) and people who are at low risk (type AB, people with CF).

Given that cholera was routinely fatal prior to the development of modern methods, we could certainly expect that the amount of CF that exists today would be a continuing relic of this previous condition.

If we assume that the individuals who actually die for their offspring during their reproductive years are typical humans, this still poses no problem for neo-Darwinians as the incidence would be relatively rare and therefore Lee's law of large numbers explanation would be very sensible and explanatory.

Yet there are clearly evidences of people in their reproductive years doing things that are horrible for their children like starving them to death for not saying amen, drowning them to death because God tells them to, failing to get them medically life-saving treatment like insulin or antibiotics because they believe God alone can heal their children.

The problem is for the theist to explain these instances of God's failure to show altruism, the non-theist can chalk this up to the same phenomenon as cystic fibrosis or type B susceptibility to cholera as long as it is not the dominant strategy for the population.

Touchstone said...

Hi Barefoot Bum,

Yes, thus the caricature of model I referenced parenthetically in the post. In another forum, someone just asked me how I could believe in evolution without a rationale as to why music would be what it is to humans today as the direct product of selective pressures.

The observations in the study suggest that the "moral grammar" underneath the altruistic acts is a shared one, and thus sourced back to a common ancestor, some 5 to 10 million years ago before the split between the species. That's the implication of this behavior manifest in such young children, I think: altruistic dispositions as a "built-in" rather than being a matter of socially-informed convention.

On those time scales, man and chimp have their altruistic tendencies, such as they are, much more exposed to the sieve of selection than they would during the short course of recorded history.

Whether it's 10 million years old, by reading this evidence or 10,000, the significance remains the presence of the kinds of behaviors and responses that chimps should NOT have, even in a rudimentary or attenuated form, on the Christian view. When a chimp feels he "ought" to help out the struggling human or stranger chimp nearby, with no expectation of reward or compensation, that "ought" becomes a problem. "Ought" is the province of the spiritual human, on Christianity.

Thanks for the comments.

-TS

Anonymous said...

Hi Rick,
Now, a Christian knows that God had brought all the beasts of the field and birds of the air before Adam to see what he would name them, and to see if any would be a suitable helper for man. (Gen 2:18-20)

you've got a bit of problem there of inconsistency with data.

- Adam could not have been specially created because, for example, evidence shows that at any give time there were no other humans around. There was never a time when humans were alone. And the founder effect would have eliminated them eventually.
- Language could not have been given by god because it was so prevalent in some form or another and heirogliphic and cuneoform(?) writing seem to have arose independently
- It is just stupid that god gave adam a choice from animals first instead of a woman. Adam evidently was not a sheep man.
- And all the evidence shows that there too many animals for adam to name them all and even if he did, who was going to remember all the millions of animal names?

pull your head out of your bible.

Anonymous said...

Hi rick,
I don't think you would have much luck convincing my son, a U.S. Marine, that this statement is true. Nor any of this buddies.
while I appreciate your point, and honor those that gave thier lives for thier country,
your example is a special case.

The vast majority of people are never in a situation where they need to make a choice to give thier lives for others and I would argue that automatically giving your life for others is not likely to be the best strategy in every case.

but I would agree that I think we are probably more altruistic than barefoot gives us credit for. Just think about how many times a door gets held open for someone.

Touchstone said...

Bahramthered,

Empathy, and other forms of social reciprocity are fascinating aspects of development, but they are not so problematic for the Christian worldview -- man uniquely, ontologically different as a morally-aware soul -- because empathy can be accounted for as a matter of (extended) self interest. The Christian has no problem acknowledging self interest, and indeed tends to view the rest of the animals as purely self-interested automata.

Dogs, for example, find enormous value in bonding with their human masters. They are a source of food, shelter, and affection, strong reasons for a dog to develop a fierce loyalty, not just to its owner but to humans more generally.

Which is not to discount the nobility of your dog in defending a stranger. Whenever we can "close the loop" though, and see that such actions fit "selfishness" on the part of the dog, even indirectly, Christians will shrug; selfishness isn't unique to humans, of course. It's really only when the "self-interest" rationale breaks down that that behavior in non-humans creates trouble for the Christian paradigm.

The dolphins are an interesting example, one I don't know much about, but which I know there are many accounts of. That bears some more reading I think, thanks.

BahramtheRed said...

Touchstone:

Your poitn about empathy, was my point. I don't think this is a good argument for "debunking chrisitniaty:

About King (the dog in question); The reason I mention him, despite a certain pride in having known him, is because he was exposed to human fights before and after that occasion. Including mine (I was in my 20s, layoff). He watched with intrest but never decided to join to protect anyone (except for me and family till he learned I didn't want his help) till that occasion (years after he had absorbed this leasson), when things might have gone really bad he had not.

I don't know what he was thinking but I like the example. But since he never before or since aced to protect anyone in such an agressive and avert manner I think it's an good example. With a pampered house pet who's only worry was did we have the good treats he loved or the biscuits he tolerated, and avoiding wiskers (a 17 pound cat terror) I doubt the logic of needing food, protection, shelter played in his decsion making. He didn't know the lack of those things.

Dogs usally accept people as their pack mates and estabilsh that relationship with them. Dogs and wolves are hostile to strange packs. For a canine to defend a stranger without reason makes for a question mark.

Admittedly I'm biased, but like I said I think it's an good example, among others.



But on a less personel note:

what about big cats? I had forgotten this when I last posted.


Big cats, to my knowledge mostly mountain lions have been know to shadow humans in their territory. Highly logical of the cats, keeping an eye on potential predators/rivals.

But people tell stories of finding fresh kills seemingly deliberatly set in their path.

Mountain lions despite being big, are solitary (except females when with offspring). Usually they eat on a prey (deer) for days. Logic says they have to hide it quickly to keep bear and wolves from finding it.

Many surviors stories tell of this behavior (admittedly I never looked into it). But wouldn't an apex predator be more likely to kill and possibly eat a potential rivel instead of sheparding it outside of it's borders?

Touchstone said...

Hi Antipelagian,

I could not disagree more about about the implications of morality and altruistism as naturalistic phenomena. First, on of the important considerations to note here is that morality is *not* "purely a case of genetics". In the study (and many others support the observations of this study), young children consistently display behavior that is difficult to account for as "training" or learned responses, and which naturally fall into "dispostional" explanations; this is the kind of inclinations humans are born with. That does implicate genetics, but that's just part of the picture. Humans have a "language grammar" as a built in, too, but that innate sense of language does not determine the language itself of the individual. It's a "toolkit" that the social environment uses to develop the particulars. For morality and altruism, there seems to be a similar "moral grammar" that we come equipped with (and apparently chimps do, too), but the particulars of the moral structure for that individual are not a matter of phenotypical expression; they are heavily influenced by the culture and the social environment of the individual.

Second, and more importantly, knowledge gained in this leads to more refined questions, and the quest for more knowledge in this area, directly *away* from solipsism. The stopper here is the opaque edifice of "common design" or "Goddidit". Such views are not strictly solipsistic, but are "dead ends" for further knowledge. Why did God make chimps with altruistic tendencies? Because he did, and that's the exhaustive end of the inquiry. On naturalism, though, this kind of insight, that chimps and humans may share a common "moral history" as a matter of development, represents a very complicated puzzle. But it's a tractable one to the naturalist, amenable to further inquiry, further testing and analysis, holding out the prospects of yet more insight to be gained as to how humans and chimps (or other animals) got where they are, and why they behave as they do. On the naturalist view, studies like this only underscore how much more there is to learn, how much knowledge there is to develop on this question.

Touchstone said...

Hi Rick,

1) Amazement about resources invested in research.

I think this study is a great example of why careful, structured inquiry is useful. It's "common knowledge" that only humans are altruistic, and that understanding is not just a vulgar one; scientists who work in this are often share the same understanding, and indeed, previous studies have produced results where animals fail to respond in nominally altruistic ways (the Warneken study discusses this history a bit). A study like this one provides a empirical basis for revising and improving on our intuitions and our common sense. Because science doesn't render fealty to common sense or intuition, we have the means to develop real knowledge. In many cases, scientific inquiry affirms what we do know intuitively and anecdotally, but in many cases, it reveals our intuitions and our common sense to be misgiven.

2) Sacrificial pet stories

My yellow labs have a history of going in harms way on my behalf, whether its just mixing it up with a raccoon that got caught in my garage, or putting herself between me and a black bear on a mountain path. I love those dogs, and honor their loyalty. But their loyalty is not what I (and others) would call "altruistic" in the asymmetric sense. My dog sees me as as her gravy train, her provider, her authority figure, her source of emotional validation. She has a compelling interest in my defense. She is invested in my welfare, as she understands it to be tied to her own.

But the study in question here presses on a different dynamic, if you read it. The help rendered occurs outside of any identified "symmetry", any rationale for why the chimp (or the child) should go to pains to render assistance. The chimp is manifestly *not* invested in the welfare of the stranger, and this one are the researchers worked to emphasize -- previous studies had a weakness in the criticism that chimps might be behaving somewhat like the dog... since the researcher humans were their providers and caretakers, they may have developed an investment in their welfare as being connected to their own.

If you lump what the study relates in with a dog's loyalty, though, I think you have missed the salience of the study.

3) Suitable helpmeets for man
Your idea of an animals "capacity to be helpful" equivocates on the idea of "helpful", I think. No doubt, a pack horse is very "helpful" as a measure of its utility, useful for getting a field plowed much more efficiently than a man could do it by himself.

But "helpful" in the sense of altruism -- something given for ostensibly nothing gained -- is not a feature of the pack horse, or any animals in relating to man. The deer runs to avoid the hunter's arrow, and resists "helping" man to the extent it can. Even the pack horse must be trained and coerced into "helping" in the fields, under bridle and strap. Dogs, you will find, are not found to be "helpful" outside of their connection to man as provider, master.

Moreover, we observe altruism not just as "help to humans", but as chimps helping other, unrelated chimps, without reward. Did God create chimps to be just generally altruistic as a way to be potentially "helpful" to man when he wants it? If so, I guess that fits with your view of scripture, but it makes the idea of man as uniquely altruistic, or moral in "unnatural" ways problematic.

4) Definition of imago dei
It's true that no one seems to have a good handle on just what the "image" is. But if you read C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity for example, you will find him advancing natural law as his central argument for the existence of God. According to Lewis, we know of God through our moral sense, a sense that we cannot account for through "mere biology". In his chapter, "Right and Wrong as a Clue to the Meaning of the Universe", Lewis tells us that until we understand an inner urge for repentance and forgiveness, Christianity won't make sense at all.

If that urge, though, obtains from psychological and social aspects that we find are not unique to humans, then, it seems Christianity makes less and less sense, on Lewis' view, at least. If we find that chimps have developed a "moral conscience", and a need to repent and be forgiven, then Lewis, and Christian thinkers like him and after him (and there are many!), is faced with an argument gone quite awry, now working to establish natural law for chimps, and the need for a chimp god, and a chimp savior.

I'm not saying that science has uncovered fMRI results that demonstrate a similar kind of moral conscience. Rather, I'm just pointing to the ramifications of findings that make humans more different as a matter of *degree* and trajectory than *kind* in terms of their moral sense. When "ought" becomes a feature of biology, the argument from natural law breaks down, don't you think?

Touchstone said...

Bahramthered,

RE: dogs. I don't think it's necessary for your dog to know the hardness of life without a faithful provider and caretaker to establish the kind of bond that makes loyalty even unto violence work. It's sufficient to suppose that the dog identifies you with strong positives for him, and that's enough, without having to have knowledge of struggling without, I suggest. He has, as you suggest, accepted you as a packmate, and the leader of the pack, as it were. This is conditioning for collective defense, wouldn't you say?


As for mountain lions providing charitable kills for hikers and other humans in their area, I think this is very much the kind of "hyper-intentional" interpretation of anecdotal evidence that leads to legend, myth and theism. Color me firmly skeptical on that proposition. I see this as evidence that points toward humans' natural tendency to overlay "narrative" where none obtains, just because narratives about the world are so appealing and important to humans.

I'm not familiar with those accounts, however, so as always, I stand to be corrected in light of good, objective evidence.

Rick said...

Lee,
Try as I might, I cannot make sense of your post. Rather than just say "Huh?", I thought I would at least try to ask some specific questions, in hope that you might shed some light on your thinking to me.

Lee:"Adam could not have been specially created because, for example, evidence shows that at any give time there were no other humans around. There was never a time when humans were alone. And the founder effect would have eliminated them eventually."

Rick: What evidence, around where and around when? Any given time? If I look at THIS time, seems like a lot of "humans around". How in heck does "humans were never alone" follow from "no other humans were around"? This just makes no sense. Founder effect?

Lee:"Language could not have been given by god because it was so prevalent in some form or another.."

Rick: Okay, who was speaking a language before God created heaven and Earth?

Lee:"It is just stupid that god gave adam a choice from animals first instead of a woman."

Rick: This is why I normally don't comment on your posts. Simple opinion based primarily upon vanity and arrogance. The "I know better than God" syndrome. There's really nothing to comment on.

Lee:"And all the evidence shows that there too many animals for adam to name them all and even if he did, who was going to remember all the millions of animal names?"

Rick: All the evidence? But, according to humanists, didn't all creatures come from just one ancestor? ;-) Despite a totally errant idea of Biblical worldview, I will correct this one thing: we are not "evolving" to something better, we are degenerating to something less. Adam was much more intelligent than you give him credit for, certainly much more than us.

Rick said...

TS,
Did you see the recent "Animal Planet" documentary about a New Zealand family (the father and his kids) who were saved from a great white shark by dolphins? Just wondering if you'd comment on that with regard to this thread.

Touchstone said...

Rick,

Sorry, hadn't heard that account. I'll see what I can Google up. The thing about dolphins fighting off sharks I've heard before (way back to a movie about with dolphins a long time ago). Without knowing anything more about the events you mention, my suspicion is that the "altruism" there is a "misfire" of a kind; sharks are natural predators for the dolphin, right? Is it enough that sharks are in the area to get dolphins in to "anti-shark mode" as a kind of reflex?

Maybe not. I'm not up on dolphin altruism.

But what would it mean if dolphins felt an "ought" with regard to "help the humans with the sharks", to you?

-TS

BahramtheRed said...

Touchstone:

Re Dogs; You hit a point for me. A dog would defend it's owner based on pack mentality. But why a stranger? It goes against logic to the point it might be a conscious choice (Not sentient, just an aware choice) to act for someone else. If he had defended me, our family, or one of my freinds (or one of his for that matter) I'd just drop it. But someone he didn't know against another dog (which he also didn't know) strikes me as weird on multiple levels, if you follow the idea he's just a dog following dog programming.

Big Cats; I don't know much about this myself. It's just an example I hoped someone else had more information.


The dolphin/shark thing is weird example. Do dolphins defend other species against sharks or is that just a gift to humans? Maybe just a way to piss off the shark. I'd like to know more before I form an opinion on that.

Anonymous said...

Hi Rick,
How in heck does "humans were never alone" follow from "no other humans were around"?
thats known as a typo. I'm surprised you didn't pick up on that. Thats why I didn't correct it after I reread it after I posted it because I thought "oh, thats okay, rick is going to realize thats a typo because of the context" but I guess i over estimated you.
sorry, won't let that happen again.

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

I certainly believe some people came about from random, NATURAL causes, that would explain animalistic behavior we notice among humans that seems to absent even in some animals.

You know I don't agree with monkey-morality and interpretations of monkey altruism. I believe humans interpret altruistic characteristics to align them with their presuppositions. I believe that's a farce like evolution itslef.

Facts are that evolution (as taught)is not good to women or people such as myself (persons of color) and is a fascist, constructed social system. Here's some evidence:

"[Even in] the most intelligent races [there] are large numbers of women whose brains are closer in size to those of gorillas than to the most developed male brains. This inferiority is so obvious that no one can contest it for a moment; only its degree is worth discussion."~Stephen Jay Gould, "The Measure of Man" (New York: Norton, 1981), 1045.

"Women represent the most inferior forms of human evolution and...are closer to children and savages than to an adult, civilized man. They excel in fickleness, inconstancy, absence of thought and logic, and incapacity to reason. Without a doubt, there exists some distinguished women, very superior to the average man, but they are as exceptional as the birth of any monstrosity, as for example, of a gorilla with two heads. Consequently, we may neglect them entirely."~Stephen Jay Gould, "The Measure of Man" (New York: Norton, 1981), 1045.

Additional commentary on this issue at Women, Mathematics and Evolution


Thanks fellas but monkey altruism and morality is bad science, in my opinion. (And yes, I do believe in science, as flawed as it may be)

Later.

Evan said...

Harvey, Harvey, Harvey.

Tsk tsk tsk.

Of course your citation is a load of crap.

Gould is QUOTING SOMEONE and it's not on page 1045. It's on pages 104-105 (commonly abbreviated 104-5).

Whatever source you are taking this from is LYING to you.

That alone should make you wonder about what else apologists will lie to you about.

Both statements can be properly attributed to Gustave Le Bon, a French psychologist who wrote in 1879.

Gould quoted him to DISCREDIT those ideas.

Moreso you don't even have the title of the book right. The title is The MISMEASURE of Man.

Back to the library for you Harvey, and to be honest, I am a little sorry for you to have to find out how badly your fundamentalist sources are lying to you.

You can go to your nearest public library and just go to page 104 of Gould's book and check it out for yourself, or you can even google around a bit to find the original article in all its glory on the web here.

You'd think with all the times that we showed you how wrong your sources on evolution are over and over again you'd get in the habit of checking them. Maybe now you will.

Touchstone said...

Evan,

Good catch on the quote mining!

BahramtheRed said...

Wow Evan that's a scary good catch.


In response to the "person of color" argument; evolution sceince recently discovered something little intresting for the whole write/black thing.

Europeans emerged from African tribes who migrated to europe in 100,000 years. Blink of an evolutionary eye and you get pale skill. That's not enough time for the radical kind of changes most rascist claim.

Of course there was a later offering (2 years ago?) that showed that pigmentation is the result of one line of code, of one gene. Litterally 4 letters.

Don't disclaim evolution as "fascist, constructed social system". It's a minorites best freind. It proves beyond doubt that people are people.

Of course it might be some people's biggest enemy. It strips the bigots of their claim to morale superoity.

goprairie said...

If God gave humans altruism, why are not all humans equally altruistic? There are people who dedicate their lives to service of others and people who dedicate their lives to their own getting ahead. Only evolution and its usefullness of diversity can explain the variety in levels of altruism, or any other trait, for that matter. God could create perfect and would have no need for diversity. Evolution needs diversity. It is the imperfection of the transfer of genes that makes evolution happen. Wouldn't God make the transfer of genes during reproduction perfect?

Unknown said...

Monkeys Enjoy Giving To Others, Study Finds

Capuchin monkeys, just like humans, find giving to be a satisfying experience, new evidence suggests.

ScienceDaily (Aug. 25, 2008) — Researchers at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center, Emory University, have shown capuchin monkeys, just like humans, find giving to be a satisfying experience. This finding comes on the coattails of a recent imaging study in humans that documented activity in reward centers of the brain after humans gave to charity.

Empathy in seeing the pleasure of another's fortune is thought to be the impetus for sharing, a trait this study shows transcends primate species.

Frans de Waal, PhD, director of the Living Links Center at the Yerkes Research Center, and Kristi Leimgruber, research specialist, led a team of researchers who exchanged tokens for food with eight adult female capuchins. Each capuchin was paired with a relative, an unrelated familiar female from her own social group or a stranger (a female from a different group).

The capuchins then were given the choice of two tokens: the selfish option, which rewarded that capuchin alone with an apple slice; or the prosocial option, which rewarded both capuchins with an apple slice. The monkeys predominantly selected the prosocial token when paired with a relative or familiar individual but not when paired with a stranger.

"The fact the capuchins predominantly selected the prosocial option must mean seeing another monkey receive food is satisfying or rewarding for them," said de Waal. "We believe prosocial behavior is empathy based. Empathy increases in both humans and animals with social closeness, and in our study, closer partners made more prosocial choices. They seem to care for the welfare of those they know," continued de Waal.

de Waal and his research team next will attempt to determine whether giving is self-rewarding to capuchins because they can eat together or if the monkeys simply like to see the other monkey enjoying food.

The research was supported by a grant from the National Science Foundation and by the Yerkes base grant from the National Institutes of Health.

Journal reference:

1. Frans B. M. de Waal; Kristin Leimgruber; Amanda R. Greenberg. Giving is self-rewarding for monkeys. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, [link]

Adapted from materials provided by Emory University, via EurekAlert!, a service of AAAS.

Emory University (2008, August 25). Monkeys Enjoy Giving To Others, Study Finds. ScienceDaily. Retrieved August 26, 2008, from http://www.sciencedaily.com­ /releases/2008/08/080825175005.htm

Rick said...

TS: "But what would it mean if dolphins felt an "ought" with regard to "help the humans with the sharks", to you?"

Rick: In my worldview, it reflects upon God's initial offer before Adam for animals to be "helpers" to man, that some remnant of that capacity yet remains.

The docu-drama I saw told an impressive story. A school(?) of dolphins surrounded the family in the water, swimming circles around them. At first they were afraid of them, suspecting that they were not going to allow them to get to shore. Only later did the father notice the presence of the large shark.

But in your worldview, since dolphins are much more removed from man evolution-wise, I was curious how you figure the evolution of 'altruism' would fit in. Is it really a sign of emerging human qualities? Perhaps a discussion for a later time, if you haven't seen this.

Rick said...

Lee:"I thought "oh, thats okay, rick is going to realize thats a typo because of the context" but I guess i over estimated you."

Rick: I guess you did. And you still haven't explained anything, so I still don't understand your post.

Touchstone said...

Robert_B,

Hadn't seen that one, thanks. The article date there looks like... yesterday, so maybe that's why. A couple of the biologists on an email loop I'm on tell me that activity in this research area is getting lots more interest in the last year or two. Those nasty scientists are always de-mystifying the mystical...

Rick,

OK, remnants of the "helper instinct" God initially create them with. Got it.

As for how how any dolphin altruism would fit in with my worldview, I think what the study discussed in my post (and Robert_B's addition above) and others like it point to is the dyamics that evolve in social animals. Those social behaviors will be different from species to species, but we have an increasingly wide view of the complexity of these behaviors, and the analysis of chimpanzee empathy or altruism (or dolphin or capuchin analogs) provides insight and support for an understanding of human morality as a natural, emergent feature.

In short, over time, for many social animals, moral and ethical structures develop in the group. "Ought", or at least the perception of "ought", arises from "is".

Rick said...

Evan,
How about this quote from Darwin's "The Descent of Man", p201, 1st edition, 1871:

"At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace throughout the world the savage races. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked,16 will no doubt be exterminated. The break will then be rendered wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as at present between the negro or Australian and the gorilla."

You can read it for yourself at darwin-online.org.uk here:
http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?viewtype=text&itemID=F937.1&pageseq=1

So can you tell me, from this, that Darwin did not view "the negro or Australian" as an evolutionary intermediate between the "Caucasian" and "the gorilla"?

Harvey's point that evolution was used as "scientific justification" for racism is well-founded. Our museums today still hold hundreds, if not thousands, of human Aborigine skulls; of people slaughtered in Australia for their bones as examples of "primative man".

Really, your best move is to admit that evolution was indeed used for these evils, and move on.

Unknown said...

I, Magpie By Bruce Bower; Songbirds show signs of recognizing their own bodies in mirrors.

A prerequisite for altruistic behavior is self cognition.

Unknown said...

Six 'uniquely' human traits now found in animals

Evan said...

Sorry Rick but no beans. First of all, I congratulate you for actually finding an actual citation in a book that exists. That's always a good first step for a creationist.

But Darwin isn't God. On this he was simply wrong. He didn't know as much as we know now. Darwin can be wrong about lots of stuff and it doesn't make the theory of evolution by common descent with the means of natural selection causing genetic changes in populations over time incorrect.

You still haven't explained to me how those koalas, kangaroos and platypuses got to Australia after Noah dumped them off the ark in Turkey. Have at it!

goprairie said...

Rick: Darwin only got the ball rolling on the idea of evolution. He was a product of his times and made some mistakes. That is no news. The theory of evolution had been expanded and developed by many scientists since then. Even good ol' Einstein made some errors. He was constantly seeking the review of peers for his pioneering ideas. That is the nature of pioneering science: Some sticks and some is found to not be quite right. But the errors do not make the sound parts less right. We don't take Darwin or his words to be inerrant and literal the way you do your bible.

As for the Genesis story that God made man first then helper animals, that is the most insane creation story I have ever heard. (In addition to contradicint the other story in the order that man and animals were made) You all should be embarrassed it is in there and just never mention it and hope no one notices instead of bringing it out like this. Really.
So God made a man. Was he supposed to be the perfect one and only ultimate man? Guess so because God certainly made no way for him to reproduce. But then that perfect creation of God was found to be . . . needy? So God tried to fix his . . . mistake? . . by making helper animals? And got that wrong and had to try again? So he made another like man but different . . . a woman . . . to be his 'helper'. And what, then decided sex and reproduction would be a good idea? That wacky flexible-plan God!
No, I think there is no chance that story is even a tiny bit true but men put it in there and leave it in there to justify their domination and abuse of women as man's 'subservient helper'. That ridiculous story has been used to justify discrimination and abuse against women for far too long and is possibly the greatest obstacle to women's rights and freedom and safety ever. Give it up.

Anonymous said...

Hi Rick,
I took your request to heart. Hopefully this will explain better what I was talking about earlier.

here are some links to articles that I wrote that will bring you up to speed in you bible study and your natural history.

Founder Effect article

Humans were never alone, and language

and you should be able to figure out the chronology of adams choices in helpers.

And think about this, if god told you "here, pick your "helper" from this bunch of animals" I bet you'd probably think God was whacked. But I'm betting you're not a sheep man either.

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

Evan,

Thanks my friend and I DO take the corrections on my writing errors.

Since those seem to be the only errors I made, I guess you agree with the assertions I make. As you replied to Rick, that Darwin didn't know what we know now...OK, so You are agreeing that Dawainian evolutionary theory was historically repressive against, both women and persons of color?

I mean in your statement you say as much asserting that Gould's idea was to Debunk LeBon's ideas...is that right? I mean the foundation of racism and repression of women within evolutionary theory can be established right?

Please state his (Gould's)objection to LeBon's assertions that women were inferior and less intelligent and were more compatible with gorilla's so far as skull size and intelligence than males. Also, state where Gould refuted that Blacks(like me) were less superior on the evolutionary scale. It may be there...if so I am a learner, and I'd like to see it.

Then let's go on to substance, who's standards of morality or altruism is monkey morality and altruism based on? Are those standards objective or subjective standards?

Do you and the scientist that contend altruism base their findings on their interpretation of monkey behavior or is there a more objective standard?

Most rationalists, such as many naturalists on this blog, give animals a higher standard of both self awareness, altruism, and morality than you give humans.

That's the tragedy of evolutionary theory at all levels.

It's bankrupt from beginning to end

"Creatures" are exalted higher than humanity and certainly higher than God because your random chance theories based on time and scant archaeological evidences convince you that there is no God other than random chance blind happenings.

I'm sorry to have just jumped in by the way, I'm not angry by any means but just pressed for time, but this is a topic worth exploring.

Thanks fellas.

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

Robert_b confirms what I've touched on. He said this,

"A prerequisite for altruistic behavior is self cognition."

Your objective rationalism affors a higher degree of cognition to animals than to humans. You don't feel babies can be altruistic because they have no identifiable self-awareness, while at the same time assume the altruism of animals based on subjective human standards for such.

That's backwards and only a part of what I call the bankrupt assertions of evolution...TOTALLY BACKWARDS!

Thanks.

Rachel said...

Problems with using this study as an answer to the Moral Argument for the existence of God:

1. As acknowledged by even the authors of the study, this flies in the face of pretty much all other studies done previously. More studies would need to be done, with the same result, before accepting this as anything other than an anomaly.

2. These were human-raised chimpanzees, which keeps us from ruling out the significant possibility that they have been "conditioned" generally to perform behaviors that humans find value in, even in interactions with other chimps.

3. The fact that these chimps were raised by humans also taints the study as it relates to "what chimps are like" because it's not their natural state. The study would be much stronger if it had observed chimps in the wild doing these things (which, granted, is much more difficult to study). Nevertheless, we cannot extrapolate that what a human-raised chimp does in a controlled environment is what a natural chimp would do in the wild, especially when such actions are different than what has ever been observed.

4. Even if a natural chimp could be observed in the wild as performing these altruistic actions for unrelated chimps w/o any reciprocation, the point is that such actions would never be selected for, unless they somehow gave the individual some kind of advantage (which means it is no longer altruistic). It's not enough for evolution to be able to find an animal performing an altruistic action somewhere sometime. What must be shown is that there is some reason for altruism to be selected for and to carry on, and not only that, but for altruism to actually become a virtue and for selfishness to be seen as a negative. Good luck with that.

So, sorry, but evolution still fails to explain human morality and altruistic behavior.


P.S. I likely won't be able to reply to any responses, as I'm still in the middle of working towards a deadline. So I apologize for the "hit-and-run" on this one, but I wanted to at least get something out there on this for the "other side".

Rick said...

Evan,

I don't believe I ever said that scientific justification of racism via evolution somehow disproved the theory. How did you make that leap? I Only said that it has been used to justify some very evil deeds, which you seemed to deny.

In fact, your whole "evolution is directionless" mantra is a very recent innovation of evolution theory. The theory was originally seen as very "progressive", which was the entire reasoning of classifying "higher" vs. "lower", or "advanced" vs. "primative" forms of life. Such terms are still used today in your circles, although the logical extension toward racism is prudently avoided.

And why is this? Only because of emotional recoil following the Holocaust. Where Hitler, an ardent admirer of American experiments in eugenics, forced sterilizations, and Margaret Sanger's Planned Parenthood as a means to "control" the black population, applied these concepts in his own country for it's "intelligent social evolution" in the best way he saw fit. Anyone who has read Hitler's book, "My Struggle", knows that it is full of evolutionary babble. Sadly, it was not the black man's struggle that caused this "scientific" shift away from racist thinking in evolution, but the repugnance of the Holocaust. Perhaps because of significant Jewish influence in the sciences at the time.

BTW, marsupial migration is not my cup of tea, but I looked up a reference for you: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/ee/origin-of-vertebrates
Just find "kangaroo" on the page for some words on the issue. Sounds reasonable to me, but I haven't vetted anything on there.

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

Domesticate a monkey or at the least expose them to humanity, take them through a few simple tests, set your own standard of what would be considered altruism minimizing the obvious behavioral self interest of animals, then claim their morality and altruistic natures...

The "science" of evolution huh?

Yea Right!

Thanks.

Touchstone said...

Hi Rachel,

Thanks for taking time to stop by.


1) If you read the study, you'll not that this experiment was designed to go beyond the problems and weaknesses of previous studies. That doesn't guarantee one outcome or another -- it could have come back again with little or no altruism observed. That's why scientists actually do the experiments, and the history of science is filled with "revisions" and "reversals" as the experimental work gets more and more directed and robust.

2), 3) One of the hypotheses at work here is that altruism tends to be constrained or attenuated by austerity, and intense competition for resources. One of the features of the experiment was getting chimpanzees OUT of the intensive natural context, where selfish and altruism are thought to be more in conflict due to the difficult of survival. When the chimpanzees do not have the overarching imperative for self-provisioning to deal with, different behavior was observed -- they were willing to help without reward in ways they were not observed to in the wild (insofar as the tests matched up).

This does not diminish the value of doing additional "in the wild tests", but it does support the idea that affluence, or at least reduced survival pressure, comports with elevated amenability to altruism. The hypothesis in this case would then be that once man managed a level of affluence in terms of brute survival -- transitioning to high-population-sustaining institutional agriculture from hunter-gatherer setups -- this affluence made altrsuism much more practicable. If chimps who are "affluent" in terms of survival are markedly more disposed toward altruism than their peers in the jungle scratching for survival, this would support the idea of altruism flourishing in humans concomitant with their rising affluence in the past several thousand years.

Why should only humans be altruistic, on this view? Well, the evidence continues to accumulate that that isn't strictly the case. But as a matter of 'survival affluence', a condition which may be crucial to making altruism a practical reality, humans have had a near monopoly on it.

4) This is confused with respect to what counts as "[giving] the individual some kind of advantage". First, altruism in humans -- or chimps -- may NOT be selected for, but may only be a collateral development that just hasn't been weeded out yet. Someone upthread noted this, correctly, as a possibility. I'm inclined to agree with the study authors that the results point to rudimentary altruism in a common ancestor we share with chimps, but suppose that altruism is "freak mishap" that arose just in the last several thousand years, as a byproduct of our over-active, over-sized, imaginative brains.

If we suppose that altruism is actually deleterious to the individual and the group she belongs to, on the whole, the time frames that would be consumed to let selection work its magic would put the "fix" way, way out in the future. Unless the behavior is massively and consistently catastrophic, mere hundreds of generations do not provide enough ticks of the evolutionary clock to wipe altruism off the genome. On that view, the observations we make -- for humans and chimps -- may be IN PROCESS of being selected against even as we speak. It doesn't look that way to me for a number of reasons, but if it were happening, it would be happening so slowly, you wouldn't observe it in action, due to the small amounts of waste or harm altruistic actions typically represent in humans.

On another line, some features are a genetic burden in terms of strict functionality, but are rewarded by evolution precisely because they are a burden the animal must carry. Why does a bull elk have such huge horns, or a peacock such a huge tail? Both are totally impractical from a functional standpoint, an excessive waste of resources. But that's the very reason they exist, on an evolutionary account; the bull with the biggest, most wasteful horns signals to prospective mates that his is the most "affluent" in the group. His genetics and physiology are so robust that he can sport vulgar displays of physical excess, and the cows identify this trait with a prospective mate with strong genes, and thus a good "mate" for here the preservation of her own genes.

In simian populations, food sharing, an "altruistic-ish" behavior is observed, with the amount of sharing roughly correlating with the dominance of the male doing the sharing. Him that is "rich" gets the chicks, and "shows off" his superiority by being generous. He who can give to others is self-sufficient and then some.

For humans, that makes sense, too. The ones who are strong, self-sufficient, adept at providing for their own survival and comforts are the "attractive ones" genetically. While giving away food or resources without any recompense *is* a loss, in terms of preference in the genetic pool, prospective mates can plausibly identify this "waste" with excess from superior genetic makeup. In that sense, human altruism may find its evolutionary incentive obtaining from its putative wastefulness. The women with the strongest genes gravitate to men who are good enough hunters, farmers, merchants or whatever such that they can afford to give resources away, and on a sustained basis.

All of which to say that the evolutionary calculus is more complicated and nuanced than you are apparently allowing for here. I realize your demands on "selected for" were necessarily brief in this combox, but as it stands, it's a pretty crude caricature of existing models for evolution. If you understand how the "wastefulness" of a huge rack on a bull elk might be rewarded, enhanced, preserved in the gene pool, you can understand how human altruism might develop, grow and perservere along the same lines.

BahramtheRed said...

District Supt. Harvey Burnett:

First off evolution, like many things including the bible and church where used to reenforce the prevailing racism of the day. May I reffer you to any number or racists who still use the bible to this end?

Evolution, with the most sceince, got over this a long time ago. To attack it today over it's origins that have been repeatedly tested and proven is ridiculous.


Your claim of the slaughter of austrilians. I have never heard of this and was unable to find it now. I found many examples of massacres but never for the purpose of bone collecting.

I know their are many many bones in various museums but I have never heard of a human being murdered strictly to increase this collection. Show some evidence.

goprairie said...

DSHB: How mny times has that genesis myth about eve being made a helpmate for adam been used to oppress women and to keep the subservient to women, to say they cannot lead and that the man must be the head of the household. What about the bible verses used to declare that gays are sinful and therefore justify denying them equal rights? your bible has been used to justify far more oppression and atrocities than anything darwin said or wrote. just for the record. and in case you didn't get what others have said, the ways it has been used wrongly does not negate the truth of the science of evolution. the theory of evolution has grown and matured and been modernized. i wish the same were true of your religion. it still uses its bible to oppress.

Rick said...

goprairie,

You sound very angry. What happened to you?

I don't see how God assigning man and woman different roles in the family or in the church is "oppressive" to them. Was Christ "oppressed" by God by being subservient to the Father? Is George Bush a superior man than you because your life is subservient to his will in many ways? Leadership is just a job and, if done righteously, NEVER means you "get to do what YOU want". Whether in the home or in the church, he who leads is servant of all. This is what Jesus modeled to us, this is what we do.

Regarding your "gay" comment, I am sure that there are many gays who have been deceived to see their movement in that light. But the ones leading the movement do not want "equal rights", they want superior rights. Why should a crime against a gay incur a greater penalty than a crime against a Christian, even when expressly because "I hate Christians"? Gays have always had the right to enter contracts, write wills, designate insurance beneficiaries, and designate power of attorney that emulate ALL the material rights of "marriage". So the "civil rights" aspect of the movement is a sham, and to compare it to the black civil rights movement is a disgraceful diminuation of the black struggle. Yes, the Bible declares homosexuality a sin, one that causes them "to recieve the due penalty in their bodies". Can you really deny that the health-care needs of the gay community far, far exceed that outside it? The Christian does not want "oppress" the gay person, but to redeem him from his sin.

Several people seem to think I raised the historical autrocities spawned by Darwinianism as "proof" it is in error. I have not! I agree with you that a thousand lies do not negate a single truth. But I believe "by their fruits you shall know them", meaning when bad comes out of "good", that is good cause to examine whether you really have the truth.

You are absolutely in error in thinking "your religion" has never changed through introspection by the body. You have never heard of reformation movements? The church absolutely has done some bad things. But in each case, man has found that his "religion" was in error with the Word of God, and corrections were made to bring man's religion back in line with that Truth. Man may create "religion", but he does not create God or God's Word.

Anonymous said...

Rich said, "I don't see how God assigning man and woman different roles in the family or in the church is "oppressive" to them."

And

"Yes, the Bible declares homosexuality a sin, one that causes them "to recieve the due penalty in their bodies"."

But he also said, "The church absolutely has done some bad things. But in each case, man has found that his "religion" was in error with the Word of God, and corrections were made to bring man's religion back in line with that Truth."

Ok Rich, are those examples you just cherry picked from the bible examples of "God's words" or are they part of the doctrine of YOUR religion?

You are doing what all christian bigots do; you use the bible to legitimise your own personal hatred and intolerance.

That or you worship a god who is himself an intolerant bigot.

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

BahramtheRed~ "To attack it today over it's origins that have been repeatedly tested and proven is ridiculous.

Goprarie~ "just for the record. and in case you didn't get what others have said, the ways it has been used wrongly does not negate the truth of the science of evolution."

SO there is consensus in the fact that there can be developments of certain "truths" over a period of time and origins DO NOT negate truth huh?

Well...I'm glad that you AGREE with those observations...Now why do you not stop being hypocritical and apply that same dictum or rationale in ALL points including the Bible and God?

Why? I KNOW WHY? Because of your presuppostional bias.

I asked for any of you to show me in evolutionary writings by the top scholars where the concepts of racism and opression of women as espoused by Darwin, LeBon and other porponents of the RELIGION of Evolution were debunked, by it's many other apostles...

NONE of you have offered such information or even HINTED that any of the evolutionary scholars have even retracted such assertions...WHILE AT THE SAME TIME...I can show you the Bible from cover to cover, that has ideas that have DEVLOPED over time and concepts that we are yet learning today because of the scholarship that is yet growing and discovering significance after over 2000 years of research.

Understanding the bible is understanding more than ONE passage. Understanding evolution doesn't take much because it's fundamental principles HAVE REMAINED UNCHANGED, and have not been challenged by any of your apostles...

Let Dawkins write..."The RACISM Delusion" or "The Mysoginist Delusion" and I MIGHT hear what you have to say because then I'll know that you have a sincere desire to help humanity...but because I don't see that from any of the proponents of evolution, I know the ONLY point in mind is to attack Christianity with unfounded and unstable propositions CALLED science.

That's the problem... I give evolution NO RESPECT because it isn't respectable...it isn't worth the ink of the pen that wrote it.

Good observation Rick, you're right on point with your comments.

Peace fellas.

MH said...

As Evan points out, the very article you quoted as proof of your point shows exactly the opposite and fulfills your most recent request.

You're being disingenuous.

The people making the false claims that women were inferior were not using any sort of evolutionary theory or derivation.

Anthony said...

This is my first post to this blog and I just need to say something to Harvey.

My friend, I was a Christian for most of my life and within the last year became an evolution and within the last few months an agnostic leaning towards a soft atheism. Every time I read your posts I am reminded of some of the reasons why I left Christianity, sheer anti-intellectualism and the refusal to even attempt to understand evolution. Dude, you need to at LEAST get an understanding of evolution before you jump on here and throw out all of the things you have been saying.

Let me help you by suggestioning one book by an evangelical scientist, it will give you some of the overwhelming evidence for biological evolution and will help get a better understanding of what it is about:

Darrel Falk, Coming to Peace with Science: Bridging the Worlds Between Faith and Biology

Now, Harvey, please, please, please, at least read what evolutionists actually say and believe before you make any more ridiculous claims. And please quit playing the race card, that just gets so old.

Okay, I've said my peace.

Touchstone said...

Thanks for the recommendation, Anthony, and welcome!

DSHB,

It's been a long time since I've had it on my desk, but if you are interested in the use of evolutionary science by a major leading light of evolution against racism, from before Darwin, to Darwin, and up to recent racist distortions of the science like Charles Murray's The Bell Curve, read Stephen Jay Gould's The Mismeasure of a Man. Gould was a titan of the science of evolution, and a lifelong enemy of racism, and one who saw unity in both.

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

Anthony~ "Now, Harvey, please, please, please, at least read what evolutionists actually say and believe before you make any more ridiculous claims. And please quit playing the race card, that just gets so old."

[Now, I'll be nice Anthony because you seem to feel that you are in a position of superiority because you believe in evolution. Quite the contrary is that case.

For me to point out the CLEAR tenets of evolutionary thought and point to the SPECIFIC implecations and teachings of the theory on both race and gender IS NOT playing any kind of card.

So your assertion that a "card" has been played was FIRST played by evolutionists.

Further, to suggest that I or anyone have not checked out the tenets and arguments of evolution, theistic or not, is another sign of your self-exaltation.

All I can say is this, I couldn't HELP but check out evolution because it was taught in the schools both primary and college...You may forget or not know, but creationaism is not taught in American public schools.

I STILL DO NOT and WILL NOT respect evolution as EVERY page that I have turned does not speak to me or my history and only lumps humans with animals.

Consider yourself an animal sir if you would like to, but I WILL NOT lower myself to the standard of a mere creature in some jungle or wildlife facility and I have excellent and founded reasons for doins so because contrary to your beliefs evolution is not accepted by all leading scientists.]


Thank you.

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

Evan, MH, Anthony and all of you,

In Gould's article that Evan so cavalieerly pointed to as IF it's teh answer to my statements, and after finding that the article gives the CLEAR history of evolutionary discrimination as I have outlined, I only would like to duplicate the following items:

1- "To appreciate the social role of Broca and his school, we must recognize that his statements about the brains of women do not reflect an isolated prejudice toward a single disadvantaged group. They must be weighed in the context of a general theory that supported contemporary social distinctions as biologically ordained. Women, blacks, and poor people suffered the same disparagement, but women bore the brunt of Broca's argument because he had easier access to data on women's brains. Women were singularly denigrated but they also stood as surrogates for other disenfranchised groups.

As one of Broca's disciples wrote in 1881: "Men of the black races have a brain scarcely heavier than that of white woman." This juxtaposition extended into many other realms of anthropological argument, particularly to claims that, anatomically and emotionally, both women and blacks were like white children--and that white children, by the theory of recapitulation, represented an ancestral (primitive) adult stage of human evolution. I do not regard as empty rhetoric the claim that women's battles are for all of us.


2- Finally Gould concludes AS I SUSPECTED AND INDICATED NOT with a statement of So-called science, but a statement of PERSONAL BELIEF:

"I prefer another strategy. Montessori and Morgan followed Broca's philosophy to reach a more congenial conclusion. I would rather label the whole enterprise of setting a biological value upon groups for what it is: irrelevant and highly injurious."

In the face of THEIR OWN assertions evolutionists offer NO SCIENTIFIC assertions other than their opinion to negate their supposed "scientific" claims, BUT claim their system to be factual...That is the farce sirs...a deception of the highest order that cannot be reconciled with science no matter how nicely dressed.

Thank you.

MH said...

Gould just spent 14 exciting scientific paragraphs deconstructing Broca's arguments, the part you quoted in #2 was the conclusion.

A conclusion that works regardless of whether someone considers evolution true or not.

Anonymous said...

DSHB said, "Good observation Rick, you're right on point with your comments"

So Harvey, I guess you think that discrimination is only a bad thing when it happens to people of color.

You're not only disingenuous and deceitful but you are also a hypocrite.


(Note: I mistakenly refferred to Rick as Rich. My apologies.)

goprairie said...

"I'm glad that you AGREE with those observations..." harvey, you are an absolute idiot if you think i have agreed with you in any way at all. you cannot just declare victory like that when you have not even digested the simplest of my points. there is no consensus here WITH anything you have said, especially not from me, but your insistence on making such claims out of thin air makes further discussion with you on any point . . . well, pointless.

Evan said...

Harvey, I am sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you.

Rick, I've posted a new article detailing my objections to your AiG link.

Back to you Harvey. You claim:

In the face of THEIR OWN assertions evolutionists offer NO SCIENTIFIC assertions other than their opinion to negate their supposed "scientific" claims, BUT claim their system to be factual...That is the farce sirs...a deception of the highest order that cannot be reconciled with science no matter how nicely dressed.

First, please address "evolutionists" as what they really are: biologists. Second, you say that Gould makes no evidential claims that disprove Le Bon and Broca. Of course you're wrong again and I wonder if you even read the whole article I linked.

Gould makes the following criticisms:

I have reexamined Broca's data, the basis for all this derivative pronouncement, and I find his numbers sound but his interpretation ill-founded, to say the least. The data supporting his claim for increased difference through time can be easily dismissed. Broca based his contention on the samples from L'Homme Mort alone--only seven male and six female skulls in all. Never have so little data yielded such far ranging conclusions.

Criticism of statistical sampling size is an extremely cogent criticism and is done in virtually every peer review that happens in the developed world. The fact that the measurements were done on 13 subjects almost invites sampling error. Gould's criticism here is perfectly accurate and is based on the evidence.

He goes on to say:

In an analysis of the data for women, I found that, at average male height and age, a woman's brain would weight 1,212 grams. Correction for height and age reduces Broca's measured difference of 181 grams by more than a third, to 113 grams.

Failure to normalize data for dependent variables is again a common criticism of studies and again Gould presents actual data to discredit Broca and Le Bon. Data you seem to have missed.

In addition Gould says:

Maria Montessori did not confine her activities to educational reform for young children. She lectured on anthropology for several years at the University of Rome, and wrote an influential book entitled Pedagogical Anthropology (English edition, 1913). Montessori was no egalitarian. She supported most of Broca's work and the theory of innate criminality proposed by her compatriot Cesare Lombroso. She measured the circumference of children's heads in her schools and inferred that that the best prospects had bigger brains. But she had no use for Broca's conclusions about women. She discussed Monouvrier's work at length and made much of his tentative claim that women, after proper correction of the data, had slightly larger brains than men. Women, she concluded, were intellectually superior, but men had prevailed heretofore by dint of physical force. Since technology has abolished force as an instrument of power, the era of women may soon be upon us: "In such an epoch there will really be superior human beings, there will really be men strong in morality and in sentiment. Perhaps in this way the reign of women is approaching, when the enigma of her anthropological superiority will be deciphered. Woman was always the custodian of human sentiment, morality and honor."

If this isn't presenting data that undermines the racist and sexist data that Le Bon and Broca put forward, I don't know what would be.

Hang it up Harvey. You got caught quote mining. Admit it. Move on. Don't do it again.

BahramtheRed said...

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

"BahramtheRed~ "To attack it today over it's origins that have been repeatedly tested and proven is ridiculous.

Goprarie~ "just for the record. and in case you didn't get what others have said, the ways it has been used wrongly does not negate the truth of the science of evolution."

SO there is consensus in the fact that there can be developments of certain "truths" over a period of time and origins DO NOT negate truth huh?

Well...I'm glad that you AGREE with those observations...Now why do you not stop being hypocritical and apply that same dictum or rationale in ALL points including the Bible and God?

Why? I KNOW WHY? Because of your presuppostional bias."


First do not insult me again by implying I agree with you in any thing.

You make two challenges. I asnwer them both:

You demand your proof that sceintists renounced the racism of early evolution sceintists. Many of the others have supplied them. Read them. I'm in the process of it.

Second you ask for a realistic review of relgion, based upon my own remark. Resonable.

I look upon relgion and see the following (oh and where has relgion "repeatedly tested and proven"?) :

An agent for oppressing minorites they don't like. I submit rick as evidence of this (don't worry rick your next). KKK and they're god for the persons of color argument you seem so determined to make.

Used for violence against anyone they don't like. Maybe read the post "How many kids" to get an idea of that.

And as a weapon for crushing any science that they don't like.

That's my personnely review of your specific relgion (chrisitianity). I'm less kind to the muslims but you get the general idea.

Still seems pretty logical to me. The fact that the root is as twisted as the tree means little to me, they're both dead on for my definition of evil.

Now I demanded you show evidence of your incredible claim. Where are those evil bone collecting athronpoligist who are willing to slaughter people?



Rick said...
"Gays have always had the right to enter contracts, write wills, designate insurance beneficiaries, and designate power of attorney that emulate ALL the material rights of "marriage". So the "civil rights" aspect of the movement is a sham, and to compare it to the black civil rights movement is a disgraceful diminuation of the black struggle. Yes, the Bible declares homosexuality a sin, one that causes them "to recieve the due penalty in their bodies". Can you really deny that the health-care needs of the gay community far, far exceed that outside it? The Christian does not want "oppress" the gay person, but to redeem him from his sin."

Your semi right. Gay people have most those rights, in a lot of states. But I can get those rights (over 300 actually) by simply finding a member of the opposite sex willing to say yes and sign a piece of paper.

Litterally that is all that is required. I don't even have to know her name, have any clue what she does, is, ect. Homosexuals only want that same ablity.

Of course the only reason for this is your relgion. The goverment extends this to any person of another relgion so that dosn't even make sense. Heck even athesits can get married, and we're the last people who would except for the legal, finicial, and social beneifits.

Also what kind of ridiculous numbers are you even attempting to use to justify your health claim? Far more straight people have God's Virus (AIDS), as some of your people call it, than straight people. There is no logic to assume it arose in Gays. They where simply the first group to really show it and bring it forward to the american conscious. Maybe I should dig out some good chrisitan groups who first displayed an illness?

Post some sort of logic to these ridiculous claims. Otheriwse your just a raging bigot.

Oh and before you ask I'm straight.

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

Evan You presented this which I print in part:

"Women, she concluded, were intellectually superior, but men had prevailed heretofore by dint of physical force. Since technology has abolished force as an instrument of power, the era of women may soon be upon us: "In such an epoch there will really be superior human beings, there will really be men strong in morality and in sentiment. Perhaps in this way the reign of women is approaching, when the enigma of her anthropological superiority will be deciphered. Woman was always the custodian of human sentiment, morality and honor."

Then you say:

Evan~ "If this isn't presenting data that undermines the racist and sexist data that Le Bon and Broca put forward, I don't know what would be."

[WRONG again Evan in defese of a LIE. What that is, is comparative, so-called, "scientific analysis" with equally as wrong of a conclusion based on a segment of information that favors her presupposed idea. That's ALL that is. She said:

"Women, she concluded, were intellectually superior, but men had prevailed heretofore by dint of physical force."

So you say that since Gould so adequately refuted Broca's and LeBon's statemnts partially based on Montessori, are we NOW to belive that WOMEN have a superior intelligence according to her beliefs?

No. These assertions are all silly just like evolution and are not scientific. They are only statements of belief. To call them science and exalt them as you have done is...SILLY!

Call it your "Statement Of Faith", and I'll have much more respect for you!


Later.

Anonymous said...

District Super, I see you arguing in several of our posts, but have you decided to get and read my book? It'll be in the libraries and bookstores before too long, so you don't have to purchase it. But I've been trying to tell you that you will WANT a copy of it! Yes, that's correct, you will want a copy of it. Why? Because you will learn a great deal about what apologists believe in order to defend their faith by reading it. I think that by telling you what they must resort to in order to defend their faith that just revealing it will debunk it. Do you know the mental gymnastics of the premier apologists? I do. I tell you about them. Go ahead. Read it. It will certainly temper your faith. You will also be better informed apologist.

Evan said...

DSHB,

Please, please make some sort of argument. You say Gould never corrects Broca and Le Bon. I show you where he does correct them.

You now say he is endorsing Montessori's point of view that women are superior and that also makes him sexist.

Make up your mind. Which is it? Does Gould believe that men are superior or that women are?

Of course, the fact is that Gould makes no positive claim about either statement. He points out the flaws in Broca and Le Bon's thinking and leaves it to the reader whether they wish to endorse Montessori's.

One thing that is sure is that Gould is against using the theory of common descent by means of natural selection modifying the gene pool of populations of organisms to justify racism or sexism. Anyone who has read the Mismeasure of Man in total (I have) can see that.

Check it out from the library Harvey. It's a GREAT book.

BahramtheRed said...

Our friend, District Supt. Harvey Burnett, dosn't care about the science, facts, or real research.

He's convinced evolution discrimates. So as long as he can find that, he'll flip the group he defending from oppressed to opressor just so long as someone is discriminated against.

I still notice he hasn't posted any real evidence. Misquotes. Ridiculous claims. And bluster.

John I hope to have your book shortly, alas that's not gonna happen soon. I'm broke so I'm waiting for the libary copy and it has 6 holds on it already, and they only ordered one copy.

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

Evan ~"You say Gould never corrects Broca and Le Bon. I show you where he does correct them.

[No Evan, what Gould does is philosophically equivocate on the issue and ends up presenting a philosophical view and renders excuses or possibilities for how the data was processed and rendered. This is what happened.

He did not at any point seek to offer a postluate or a set of principles whereby the prior aguments were refuted. He simply says that in the end previous findings were overstated and harmful. He renders a professional opinion NOT a scientific opinion based on empirical evidence. LeBon created a scientific case in his view, Gould just says, "it doesn't matter. and it's overstated"]


Evan~ You now say he is endorsing Montessori's point of view that women are superior and that also makes him sexist.

[No. HE offers Montessori's points and supposed scientific findings as ANOTHER polarized extreme of the same argument. He NEVER makes an assertion that she is wrong only in the end that, "It doesn't matter"...again a philosophical view and a matter of his OPINION Not science. If he is sexist he's sexist on his own standing.]

Evan~ "Make up your mind. Which is it? Does Gould believe that men are superior or that women are?

[Your apostles should make up THEIR minds, they are the ones equivovcating the issue and polarizing the arguments. Gould is trying to take an embarassing situation...which HE KNOWS is unscientific either way and moderate and mediate without rendering the scientific conclusion that either position is wrong. He ONLY points out flaws but NEVER concludes with scientific evidence either way that either of his predecessors conclusions are wong. He merely states that LeBon's are "hurtful" NOT WRONG.]

Evan~ Of course, the fact is that Gould makes no positive claim about either statement. He points out the flaws in Broca and Le Bon's thinking and leaves it to the reader whether they wish to endorse Montessori's.

[I HOPE noone argues with me because that's EXACTLY what I'm saying...it only sounds better to others coming from an atheist doesn't it?]

Evan ~ "One thing that is sure is that Gould is against using the theory of common descent by means of natural selection modifying the gene pool of populations of organisms to justify racism or sexism.

[Where is that at Evan. That is your conclusion after reading but Gould DOES NOT point out either argument as being fallacious, he merely accommodates them both them makes a philosophical conclusion.

NOW, It may be that evolution is more philosophical in nature than empirically scientific, if that's the case...introduce it as such. But to say that he improves science by redering a better scientific method to debunk evolutionist findings is just INACCURATE. He at NO POINT does this.]


Evan ~ "Anyone who has read the Mismeasure of Man in total (I have) can see that."

[the only reason I laugh at this Evan is because when I say this as a Christian about the bible you call me deluded. I render the SAME COURTESY back to you in this regard and respond by saying...Yea RIGHT!]

Anyway, Thanks for pointing out very significant information as I think rendering that information has been very helpful to the discussion and has further solidified my position and opened up new ones regarding the evolutionary world-view.

Later.

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

BahramtheRed ~ "He's convinced evolution discrimates. So as long as he can find that, he'll flip the group he defending from oppressed to opressor just so long as someone is discriminated against.

[Since I see you just got off the "Turnip Truck" last night, let me break it down for you...Evolution is a Philosophical postualte and world view. Science is secondary as our good friend Gould proves by making assertions and equivocating against and in between "so-called" scientific discoveries and experimentations.

I do not affirm any of the findings of evolution as they are biased and obviously as we have viewd this issue, in CONFLICT based on interpretations of the same data. Gould only stands as a goalee and referee trying to help recreate what is broken and make BOTH extremes sound ridiculous. WHY? because he knew BOTH positions were ridiculous, BUT rather than create a measureable scientific postulate, he presents a philosophical conclusion that statements were "irrelevant and highly injurious.". Thus he presents a Philosophical point of view and NOT acientific conclusion and or postulate. Neither does he provide information as to how his conclusions are valid...ONLY that he states that neither of his evolutionsist friends arguments are valid...ie: HIS CONCLUSIONS are based on what he thinks and is passed off as science...That's the PROBLEM my friend...discrimination has little to do with it...and YOU MISSED that point like most atheists LONG AGO.]


Thank you all for your enlightening conversation regarding these issues.

As Always,
YOUR DSHB.

Evan said...

Harvey I've read the Bible many times. Do I strike you as someone who is biblically illiterate?

Again, this is one small part of an entire book arguing against the position you are taking. Read the whole book. I hope you will do this since I have read through the Bible on at least 3 occasions and continue to study it with a great degree of regularity thanks to this site.

If I'm willing to read and criticize the Bible, can't you at least become familiar with modern arguments for biology?

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

Evan ~ "Harvey I've read the Bible many times. Do I strike you as someone who is biblically illiterate?"

[Wellll...YEA!...I'm just kiddin'(LOL) Not illiterate, just misdirected both on message and content...what the hey, U R an atheist...so I expect as much.]

Evan ~ "If I'm willing to read and criticize the Bible, can't you at least become familiar with modern arguments for biology?

[I am familiar with modern arguments for biology Evan and you know that...Only I am not blinded by the lie of naturalism as espoused by evolution as you are. I don't begin with the thought that evolution is right. You criticize me for reading the bible with the thought that it is right...So I see a double standard whereby naturalism is supposed to receive a pass as being right while the bible is suspect as wrong before a page is opened because of antisupernatural bias? Please Evan, you can do better...Should I feel a "burning in the bosom" when I read Gould's and Loftus's book....PLEASE!

Thanks my friend

Evan said...

Harvey that's hardly fair of you. I was raised as a Young-Earth creationist who believed the Bible was inerrant. I attended elementary school, high school, college and medical school at institutions that taught creationism exclusively.

If you want to suggest that I started with a presupposition that evolution was true, you're simply wrong. I started with the presupposition that it was false and that it would withstand any criticism.

Luckily for me, the Young-Earth Creationist position is the most incredibly weak one that could be imagined and as it faded, so did Old-Earth Creationism, Theistic Evolution, Deism, Eastern Spirituality, and all of the rest of them.

But I started with the same beliefs you did. I was open to arguments that disagreed with me though, open enough to be convinced when it was clear that I was wrong.

One example someone is wrong is when they lie to you to convince you that they're right, like whatever creationist web site you pulled your original quotes off was lying to you.

Anthony said...

Harvey, you wrote in one place

I do not affirm any of the findings of evolution as they are biased

In another you said

I am familiar with modern arguments for biology

Like Evan I was a young-earther most of my life and only within the last couple of months I have totally abandoned Christianity for intellectual reasons. I can also say that your statements above only show your ignorance of modern biology and evolution specifically. Honestly, tell me the last book you read defending evolution? What you learned in high school and intro courses in college are not sufficient. So, you will have to excuse me if I do not believe you when you say that you are familiar with modern biology. Indeed it seems that most creationists make that baseless claim.

My friend, will you please try to think objectivity for once. You blast evolutionists and atheists (by the way I am currently agnostic but leaning towards a soft atheism) for being biased and assuming evolution to be true. I am one, and there are many here, who were biased against evolution for most of our lives, as we assumed the Bible to be true. It was the evidence that forced use to reject our former views. You are biased in favor of and assume the truth of the Bible and creationism. So you are basically calling the kettle black.

Your claim that evolution supports racism is simply ridiculous as it has been shown over and over again. We are all genetically related, men and women, whether they are white, black, hispanic, chinese, japanese, etc, etc, we all have the same genetic code and come from a common ancestor. So there are no claims to superiority at least not based in fact. By the way, during the period of slavery in America most professing Christians who owned slaves justified it from the Bible. To take it a little further do not many creationists believe that the negro race came from Ham?

BahramtheRed said...

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
BahramtheRed ~ "He's convinced evolution discrimates. So as long as he can find that, he'll flip the group he defending from oppressed to opressor just so long as someone is discriminated against.

[Since I see you just got off the "Turnip Truck" last night, let me break it down for you...Evolution is a Philosophical postualte and world view. Science is secondary as our good friend Gould proves by making assertions and equivocating against and in between "so-called" scientific discoveries and experimentations.

I do not affirm any of the findings of evolution as they are biased and obviously as we have viewd this issue, in CONFLICT based on interpretations of the same data. Gould only stands as a goalee and referee trying to help recreate what is broken and make BOTH extremes sound ridiculous. WHY? because he knew BOTH positions were ridiculous, BUT rather than create a measureable scientific postulate, he presents a philosophical conclusion that statements were "irrelevant and highly injurious.". Thus he presents a Philosophical point of view and NOT acientific conclusion and or postulate. Neither does he provide information as to how his conclusions are valid...


I didn't think that when we sdtarted but I'm rapidly getting there. If you did you still have them in your ears, or eyes in this context.

You claim I accepted evolution as a starting point. I was indoctrinated christian too. I got over that. You seem determined to attack evolution based upon deliberate misenterpertaion and ouitright lie. (Still waiting to hear about those evil bone collecting naturislist willing to murder for them).

I havn't even hit you on all the oddball tagents you've thrown out leaving you for evan. He's better read and doing just fine.

You keep attacking Gould, who I'd barely heard of before this started. Discreditting one scientist won't destroy the theory any more than discreditting one preacher would destroy your relgion. So skip Gould. I havn't done as much research into this as I wanted but he dosn't seem very modern anyway.

Now you claim evolution is "Evolution is a Philosophical postualte and world view:

No. It is a sceintific theory that has been used by some as all manner of things. At it's core it is about research and discovering the truth of the world. Evolution has no part of my morale beleifs, it helps my sceintific undertsanding.

There is no evidence that contradicts it.

So I ask you this? How is your claim that evolution is wrong supported by anything other than a rampant distrust and misapplied sentiments?

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

Now since you atheists seem to thonk that anyone who disagrees with evolution isn't up on current arguments, you should know that things haven't changed as much as yyou like people to believe over the last 30 years or so. Check these statements out from scientist and even some who were and are atheists regarding your "golden cow":

Dr. William J. Ouweneel ~“It is becoming increasingly apparent that evolution is not even a good scientific theory” Evolution fails ALL criteria for categorization as a scientific postulate. “Evolution is actually a materialistic postulate rather than a credible scientific theory” [“The Scientific Character Of The Evolution Doctrine”(Creation Research Quarterly) Sept. 1971 p.109 & 115

Pierre-Paul Grassé ~ “Today our duty is to destroy the myth of evolution, considered as a simple, understood, and explained phenomenon which keeps rapidly unfolding before us. Biologists must be encouraged to think about the weaknesses and extrapolations that theoreticians put forward or lay down as established truths. The deceit is sometimes unconscious, but not always, since some people, owing to their sectarianism, purposely overlook reality and refuse to acknowledge the inadequacies and falsity of their beliefs.
Their success among certain biologists, philosophers, and sociologists notwithstanding, the explanatory doctrines of biological evolution do not stand up to an objective, in-depth criticism. They prove to be either in conflict with reality or else incapable of solving the major problems involved
(The Evolution of Living Organisms: 1977 pp. 8,202, emp. added)

British physicist H.S. Lipson ~“In fact, evolution became in a sense a scientific religion; almost all scientists have accepted it and many are prepared to ‘bend’ their observations to fit with it... “I think, however, that we must go further than this and admit that the only acceptable explanation is creation…I know that this is anathema to physicists, as indeed it is to me, but we must not reject a theory that we do not like if the experimental evidence supports it” (May 1980 issue of Physics Bulletin (A Physicist Looks at Evolution)31:138)


AE. Wilder Smith~ “As Kerkut has shown [in his “The Implications Of Evolution”], Neo Darwinian though teaches seven main postulates. Not one of these seven theses can be proven or even tested experimentally. If they are not supported by experimental evidence, the whole story can scarcely be considered to be a scientific one. If the seven main postulates of Neo Darwinism are experimentally untestable, then Neo Darwinism must be considered to be a philosophy rather than a science, for science is concerned solely with experimentally testable evidence.” [The Natural Sciences Knowing Nothing From Evolution(SanDiego Master Books , 1981) p133]

Colin Patterson [one of the world’s foremost fossil experts who at the time was serving as senior paleontologist of the British Museum of Natural History in London and editor of the professional journal published by the museum] “One morning I woke up and something had happened in the night, and it struck me that I had been working on this stuff for twenty years and there was not one thing I knew about it. That’s quite a shock to learn that one can be misled so long. Either there was something wrong with me, or there was something wrong with evolution theory…“Then I woke up and realized that all my life I had been duped into taking evolution as revealed truth in some way.”
(1981). He went on to coin evolution as “Anti-Knowledge”


Sir Fred Hoyle ~ “I don’t know how long it is going to be before astronomers generally recognize that the combinatorial arrangement of not even one among the many thousands of biopolymers on which life depends could have been arrived at by natural processes here on the Earth. Astronomers will have a little difficulty in understanding this because they will be assured by biologists that it is not so, the biologists having been assured in their turn by others that it is not so. The “others” are a group of persons who believe, quite openly, in mathematical miracles. They advocate the belief that tucked away in nature, outside of normal physics, there is a law which performs miracles (provided the miracles are in the aid of biology). This curious situation sits oddly on a profession that for long has been dedicated to coming up with logical explanations of biblical miracles.... It is quite otherwise, however, with the modern miracle workers, who are always to be found living in the twilight fringes of thermodynamics (“The Big Bang in Astronomy,” New Scientist, 92:521-527, November 19.
1981, 92:526, parenthetical comment in orig.)


Sir Fred Hoyle, and Chandra Wickramasinghe ~ “Once we see, however, that the probability of life originating at random is so utterly minuscule as to make the random concept absurd, it becomes sensible to think that the favourable properties of physics on which life depends, are in every respect deliberate.... It is therefore almost inevitable that our own measure of intelligence must reflect in a valid way the higher intelligences...even to the extreme idealized limit of God” (Evolution from Space) London: J.M. Dent & Sons1981, pp. 141,144)

Sir Fred Hoyle ~ “The likelihood of the spontaneous formation of life from inanimate matter is one to a number with 40,000 noughts after it.... It is big enough to bury Darwin and the whole theory of evolution. There was no primeval soup, neither on this planet nor on any other, and if the beginnings of life were not random, they must therefore have been the product of purposeful intelligence” (Hoyle on Evolution,” Nature, 294:105,148, November 12 1981, 294:148, emp. added)

Michael Denton [Molecular Biologist] ~ “In this book, I have adopted the radical approach. By presenting a systematic critique of the current Darwinian model, ranging from paleontology to molecular biology, I have tried to show why I believe that the problems are too severe and too intractable to offer any hope of resolution in terms of the orthodox Darwinian framework, and that consequently the conservative view is no longer tenable
The intuitive feeling that pure chance could never have achieved the degree of complexity and ingenuity so ubiquitous in nature has been a continuing source of scepticism ever since the publication of the Origin; and throughout the past century there has always existed a significant minority of first-rate biologists who have never been able to bring themselves to accept the validity of Darwinian claims. In fact, the number of biologists who have expressed some degree of disillusionment is practically endless.
The anti-evolutionary thesis argued in this book, the idea that life might be fundamentally a discontinuous phenomenon, runs counter to the whole thrust of modern biological thought.... Put simply, no one has ever observed the interconnecting continuum of functional forms linking all known past and present species of life. The concept of the continuity of nature has existed in the mind of man, never in the facts of nature (Evolution: A Theory in Crisis 1985 pp. 16,327,353,)


Søren Løvtrup [Sweedish Biologist]~ “After this step-wise elimination, only one possibility remains: the Darwinian theory of natural selection, whether or not coupled with Mendelism, is false. I have already shown that the arguments advanced by the early champions were not very compelling, and that there are now considerable numbers of empirical facts which do not fit with the theory. Hence, to all intents and purposes the theory has been falsified, so why has it not been abandoned? I think the answer is that current evolutionists follow Darwin’s example—they refuse to accept falsifying evidence (Darwinism: The Refutation of a Myth 1987 (London: Croom Helm) p.352)

George Greenstein[Physicist] ~ “As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency—or, rather, Agency—must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit? (The Symbiotic Universe (New York: William Morrow 1988, p. 27)

Frank Tipler~ “When I began my career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced atheist. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable logic of my own special branch of physics (The Physics of Immortality,1994 Preface)

Michael Denton ~ “Because this book presents a teleological interpretation of the cosmos which has obvious theological implications, it is important to emphasize at the outset that the argument presented here is entirely consistent with the basic naturalistic assumption of modern science—that the cosmos is a seamless unity which can be comprehended ultimately in its entirety by human reason and in which all phenomena, including life and evolution and the origin of man, are ultimately explicable in terms of natural processes.
Although this is obviously a book with many theological implications, my initial intention was not specifically to develop an argument for design; however, as I researched more deeply into the topic and as the manuscript went through successive drafts, it became increasingly clear that the laws of nature were fine-tuned on earth to a remarkable degree and that the emerging picture provided powerful and self-evident support for the traditional anthropocentric teleological view of the cosmos. Thus, by the time the final draft was finished, the book had become in effect an essay in natural theology in the spirit and tradition of William Paley’s Natural Theology….
Whether one accepts or rejects the design hypothesis…there is no avoiding the conclusion that the world looks as if it has been tailored for life; it appears to have been designed. All reality appears to be a vast, coherent, teleological whole with life and mankind as its purpose and goal (Nature’s Destiny: How the Laws of Biology Reveal Purpose in the Universe (New York: Simon & Schuster) 1998 pp. xvii-xviii,xi-xii, 387).


These are quotes from TOP scientist in various fields over 27 YEARS. Little has changed over time. It’s the atheist dream to snowball a person into thinking there has been such dramatic recent changes in evolutionary theory but such IS NOT the case. Evolution is a philosophical construction at best and a LIE at worst. From all evidence it is a the latter.

So familiarize yourselves with current research instead of naturalistic propaganda. Sorry John but I sincerely doubt if I’ll find anything compelling in your book...Of that I’m certain.

Later

Anthony said...

Harvey, you've got to be kidding, right? You have gone quote mining again and most of them are 20-30 years or more old.

First off two that you quote are young-earth creationsists (Ouweneel and Wilder-Smith). Neither would be objective in their assessment of evolution.

Denton opposed evolution in his first work but changed his mind by the time of his second one. He is at best friendly to intelligent design.

Pierre-Paul Grassé did not oppose evolution, his issue was with the mechanism. He espoused a neo-Lamarkian view.

I don't know anything about Lipson except that every creationist cites that quote. Let me do a little quote mining myself.

"Several people have given clear indications that they do not understand Darwin's theory. The theory does not merely say that species have slowly evolved: that is obvious from the fossil record."
-H. J. Lipson, "A physicist looks at evolution-a rejoinder", Physics Bulletin, December 1980, pg 337.


I don't know the context of this quote but using your principle of quote mining I can infer that he still believed in evolution because he said that it was "obvious from the fossil record" that species evolved.

Fred Hoyle was, I'm sure, a brilliant scientist, but he rejected Big Bang cosmology even though all the evidence pointed to it and he defended "panspermia." Besides he was not a biologist.

Søren Løvtrup like Grassé did not reject evolution, he disagreed on it's mechanism.

Your quote of George Greenstein is classic quote mining as he goes on to say in the context:

"Unfortunately I believe it to be illusory."

He then goes on to say:

I believe that the discoveries of science are not capable of proving God's existence-not now, not ever.

So, contrary to your quote he does not believe that science proves God.

Contrary to your statement, only a couple could be considered "TOP" scientists. As I stated most of these quotes are very old and the evidence within the last couple of decades have "sealed the deal" for me as for evolution.

BahramtheRed said...

I don't even have to read that to know what it's gonna say. I know that from the end of your first bold faced pharagraph:

The Scientific Character Of The Evolution Doctrine”(Creation Research Quarterly) Sept. 1971 p.109 & 115

Your using sources freindly to your beleifs to attack. Find something indepenat. Or at least let them and pretend your creative. But on to actually reading it (I feel a stomach twisting headache coming)

Oh that was fun. Thank you. But here goes:

First paragpraph Pierre blows his credablity. He states unevoicallably he is just looking to disprove evolution for his beleifs. Not indepandant research. Not to prove his own beleif, just to attack. He mentions problems but dosn;t even attamept to show how the evidence fits his theory better (like a real sceintist).

Lipson is more of the same. I agree with him, reject any theory that dosn't fit the evidence. But I've never seen any evidence that dosn't fit evolution. I know mysteries that havn't been resolved yet. I know questions that need more examination. But nothing that disproves or even really challenges evolution.

Smith is more of the same. But he's a liar too. We can test evolution. We have. It's just people who don't want to beleif (as in look at, objectivly analyze and then decide if it's true or not). But he said that in 1981, before a mountain of new research. So back to my orgina statement, he's not current and maybe not a liar.

Patterson; 81 again? Anything before 2001 I won't consdier current (and that's generous)

Hoyle. Kinda repetative. 81, Also the dumbest modernly. We've recreated a huge number of the pieces that would allow for proto life to evolve, including some of the replicatos that wuld allow for life to form. He does have one small infintsiaml point. It is a mathmatical miracle for that ooze that became life to fastforward through the universe to create us and this world. But only since there where hundrefds of billions of possible combinations.

Denton is slightly better 85, but still garbage.

Lovtrup; treis tyo make evolution sound dead in 87. Why's the theory stronger than ever? Why are we even talking then?

Greenstien isn't even in the rigfht feild to talk about this. He's also from 88, still 2 decades removed from the most recent research that kills most of this drivel.

Tipler; He dosn't even bother making a point. I guess I have to read his book to disprove him. Oh wait the google did it for me: LOL! Your wouldn't beelive me. LMFAO! I like tipler. Use him as your champion. Please?

Denton comes back with more irruditable complexity. Disproven endlessly.

So why don't you stop reading christin publications and read a sceintific one or two? If I thought you'd watch them I'd give you a couple youtube videos by real sceintist (albiet with some weird musical tastes) made for mass consumption so they're not overly technical. They pretty much disprove all this and the whole collection will cost you less than an hour.

Or failing that, get some quotes from the last 5 years that I might have to actually do some real reading to discredit, even if only for me since you won't beleive me.

Been fun. Still chuckling ver tipler. Thx.