New Testament Christians or Religious Atheists?
The striking fact that I’ve read over and over from most all Christians trying to apologetically defend the Bible is that the only thing that separates them from our DC staff posters is a word called faith.
Since the active Biblical God is now “Dead in the Water” we non-religious fully developed atheist are given apologetic theologies replete with platitudes as to why a once active Biblical God only appears dead in the water.
I’ve asked regular apologetic commentators such as our District Supt. Harvey Burnett about healing. Harvey assures me he and his church have the ability to heal via God and prayer.
Harvey states: “I have done that Harry. I have first hand experience of seeing some who the doctors had medically gave up on before believers gathered, prayed and God raised them up and or reversed their physical illness. In fact Harry, I have some people in my church that were medically diagnosed with cancer and in at least 1 case cancerous tumors. Those tumors no longer exist and cancer is either inremission or cannot be found.”
He further claims: “That's the problem with your thinking Harry, I cannot heal anyone...ONLY God can and that's the part that escapes you. So far as taking what seems to be an impossible situation and healing it, there have been credible testimonies gathered over the years for such phenomea INCLUDING the regrowth and extension of limbs development of organs etc. in response to believing prayer.”
Here’s the problem with Harvey’s claim. There is no objective external proof that anything but random events and positive thinking did any healing. In light of the more positive Religious Atheist I’ve debated here, our charismatic Pentecostal Christian, Harvey is at least attempting to make the Bible claims live today as much as it did 2,000 years ago even if our boat (God) is dead in the water and only appears to be acting, but which is in reality, is only drifting with the wind.
On the other hand, another commenter named David is more inline with what I call a hard-core Religious Atheist. Like most Fundamental Baptist, he sees the New Testament miracles (called in Greek “Signs and Wonders”) some how as having officially ended.
Except for faith, David has only wishful thinking (or positive energy called prayer) to hope one is healed or God’s will is done. For me, David is less of a believer that Harvey and is left with only God called Faith.
To push my point, I took a stance in line with claims given by Jesus and the New Testament that “Signs and Wonders” are proof of the truths Christian over classical and stagnant paganism. David emphatic stated them to be over.
Harry stated: “Please quote me chapter and verse where the Bible states these gift have ended.”
David replied: “No sir, your claim is under question here. Please quote me chapter and verse where the Bible states "signs and wonders" should still be manifest.”
Since I like case studies, I have posted below an event that happened at a local Baptist church. In order to prove that there are Religious Atheist commenting here and that the ONLY thing they have is a God called FAITH, I want any Bible Believing Christians to explain why, in your apologetic defense, God failed to act by either sending this rabid fox down the road to attack and bite the “debauched men and women” at the local strip club or, as Daniel in the Lions Den, protect these Christians as they cried out to God (or anyone else that would listen) for help!
My thesis is that, except for their God called Faith, their explanation will be just like the explanation of any secular person or what I now call Religious Atheist (“Religious” in the same sense that Buddhism is called religious, but, in fact is a philosophy.)
Fox Attacks Family Inside Church
Greenville News
Published: November 6, 2008
A fox attacked two adults and a 6-year-old child inside a Spartanburg County church Wednesday evening, that’s according to the Greenville News.
Other members of Liberty Baptist Church, on Bishop Road, were scratched by the fox as they tried to get the animal out of the church fellowship hall. The Rev. David Duncan said the attack occurred around 6:55 p.m. when his daughter, 20-year-old Alicia Duncan, opened the fellowship hall door. The fox jumped on her and bit her several times before biting another woman’s leg when the animal latched onto her ankle, he said.
The fox then went into the fellowship building and started attacking those inside, even as they used metal chairs to hit the fox, the pastor said. The animal went into the hallway of the church’s main building and back into the fellowship building before it was forced outside, under a car, where it later died.
Duncan said those who were bitten were treated at Spartanburg Regional Medical Center.
Spartanburg County Environmental Enforcement Director Don Arnold said results to determine whether the animal was rabid will be available Friday.
Arnold urges those who live in the area to make sure all outdoor pets have been innoculated against rabies.
Up Date:
The local news tonight (11/07) confirmed the fox was rabid.
Since the active Biblical God is now “Dead in the Water” we non-religious fully developed atheist are given apologetic theologies replete with platitudes as to why a once active Biblical God only appears dead in the water.
I’ve asked regular apologetic commentators such as our District Supt. Harvey Burnett about healing. Harvey assures me he and his church have the ability to heal via God and prayer.
Harvey states: “I have done that Harry. I have first hand experience of seeing some who the doctors had medically gave up on before believers gathered, prayed and God raised them up and or reversed their physical illness. In fact Harry, I have some people in my church that were medically diagnosed with cancer and in at least 1 case cancerous tumors. Those tumors no longer exist and cancer is either inremission or cannot be found.”
He further claims: “That's the problem with your thinking Harry, I cannot heal anyone...ONLY God can and that's the part that escapes you. So far as taking what seems to be an impossible situation and healing it, there have been credible testimonies gathered over the years for such phenomea INCLUDING the regrowth and extension of limbs development of organs etc. in response to believing prayer.”
Here’s the problem with Harvey’s claim. There is no objective external proof that anything but random events and positive thinking did any healing. In light of the more positive Religious Atheist I’ve debated here, our charismatic Pentecostal Christian, Harvey is at least attempting to make the Bible claims live today as much as it did 2,000 years ago even if our boat (God) is dead in the water and only appears to be acting, but which is in reality, is only drifting with the wind.
On the other hand, another commenter named David is more inline with what I call a hard-core Religious Atheist. Like most Fundamental Baptist, he sees the New Testament miracles (called in Greek “Signs and Wonders”) some how as having officially ended.
Except for faith, David has only wishful thinking (or positive energy called prayer) to hope one is healed or God’s will is done. For me, David is less of a believer that Harvey and is left with only God called Faith.
To push my point, I took a stance in line with claims given by Jesus and the New Testament that “Signs and Wonders” are proof of the truths Christian over classical and stagnant paganism. David emphatic stated them to be over.
Harry stated: “Please quote me chapter and verse where the Bible states these gift have ended.”
David replied: “No sir, your claim is under question here. Please quote me chapter and verse where the Bible states "signs and wonders" should still be manifest.”
Since I like case studies, I have posted below an event that happened at a local Baptist church. In order to prove that there are Religious Atheist commenting here and that the ONLY thing they have is a God called FAITH, I want any Bible Believing Christians to explain why, in your apologetic defense, God failed to act by either sending this rabid fox down the road to attack and bite the “debauched men and women” at the local strip club or, as Daniel in the Lions Den, protect these Christians as they cried out to God (or anyone else that would listen) for help!
My thesis is that, except for their God called Faith, their explanation will be just like the explanation of any secular person or what I now call Religious Atheist (“Religious” in the same sense that Buddhism is called religious, but, in fact is a philosophy.)
Fox Attacks Family Inside Church
Greenville News
Published: November 6, 2008
A fox attacked two adults and a 6-year-old child inside a Spartanburg County church Wednesday evening, that’s according to the Greenville News.
Other members of Liberty Baptist Church, on Bishop Road, were scratched by the fox as they tried to get the animal out of the church fellowship hall. The Rev. David Duncan said the attack occurred around 6:55 p.m. when his daughter, 20-year-old Alicia Duncan, opened the fellowship hall door. The fox jumped on her and bit her several times before biting another woman’s leg when the animal latched onto her ankle, he said.
The fox then went into the fellowship building and started attacking those inside, even as they used metal chairs to hit the fox, the pastor said. The animal went into the hallway of the church’s main building and back into the fellowship building before it was forced outside, under a car, where it later died.
Duncan said those who were bitten were treated at Spartanburg Regional Medical Center.
Spartanburg County Environmental Enforcement Director Don Arnold said results to determine whether the animal was rabid will be available Friday.
Arnold urges those who live in the area to make sure all outdoor pets have been innoculated against rabies.
Up Date:
The local news tonight (11/07) confirmed the fox was rabid.
59 comments:
Good post, but I think I'd personally be more interested to hear this Mr. Burnett's "credible testimonies" about amputees growing back limbs. Such a thing should be pretty simple to verify, right? I'd like to hear the story....
Right Jeff and good point.
If Rev. Burnett COULD prove that objectively something did happen, than I would term him a true New Testament Christian and, hey, I would be one too!
I’m an non-religious atheist because I could not live my Christian life with a cloud of lies. But if there’s factual truth to the miracles in the Bible and Christianity, we atheist would be the first to convert!
There's an old stunt/sleight of hand which makes it appear that legs are being extended or grown. The subject is sat down with her legs side-by-side to clearly show there's a length difference. The length is often exaggerated by manipulating the subject's posture. Some magical incantations later and the "short" leg is relaxed and pulled which makes it appear to grow and then the shoe (which has been untied) is gently pulled which can add another inch.
It's a good trick. Some examples of people getting suckered by it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxbI_hAUO40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WfBomZJ_5o
If you have James Randi's book on Faith Healers, he lays out the scam in much more detail.
Harry~ "Here’s the problem with Harvey’s claim. There is no objective external proof that anything but random events and positive thinking did any healing. In light of the more positive Religious Atheist I’ve debated here, our charismatic Pentecostal Christian, Harvey is at least attempting to make the Bible claims live today as much as it did 2,000 years ago even if our boat (God) is dead in the water and only appears to be acting, but which is in reality, is only drifting with the wind."
Harry I'm sure I didn't give you the impression that this was a whole sale onslaught of healings phenomea etc...God heals at his bidding and I've witnessed that FIRST HAND according to believing prayer...now I have heard from many credible sources about limb regrowth primarily from a previous atrophy of the limb or extension. I've never heard of anyone who didn't otherwise have a leg or an arm growing one, but there are a host of evengelists and missionaries both charismatic and non-charismatic who have witnessed such reversarsals of physical health.
Now, as for what I have personally experienced Harry, it can't be reduced to wishful thinking. The gentleman I refrenced with the tumor, went to the doctor, a tumor and abnormal growth was both recognized and confirmed. The dr. sent him for biopsy and pathology confirmed a cancerous tumor or growth. I'll speak to the gentleman to see if he can give me the stage of cancer or the pathology report.
The week (certainly no later than 2 weeks) after his diagnosis, I had a special prayer in which I anointed him with oil (James 5:14-15)and prayed the prayer of faith.
When he went back to the doctor for a reexamination and to receive his mode or method of treatment...the tumor which was visable and witnessed by the doctor was GONE.
Now that's what I've seen and heard Harry and amazingly that's not the most fantastic thing I've received information on.
Why doesn't God do this all the time?...I have NO idea. Wouldn't the world be better if he did it all the time?...I guess if it would cause men to turn from their sins unto him, but critics like you and others will always stare right in the face of a miracle, criticize it and disbelieve it.
None of that changes the fact that it can and is done. Wholesale? Maybe not, but it wasn't wholesale in Jesus day either. There were some he didn't heal BECAUSE of their unbelief.
Good topic though...try to let me know when you single me out next time so I can be better prepared.
Thanks, my athiest debate buddy!
By the way. There is a man in Evanston, IL, name Carlos Moody, who visits Africa and thrid world contries quite often and for over 40 years as a missionary. He was poisoned...that was confirmed through the local hospital. He was in the hospital and expectant to die...prayer was prayed over him, same was as what I've said and he lives today. That was over 20 years ago.
A guy named Darryel Hines in Milwaukee, WI. was struck by lightening and DIED. Medically diagnosed DEAD. His Mother prayed for him and he rose and lives and preaches TODAY as a result this was over 15 years ago.
You should be able to look up these guys on internet search and if you need additional info on either of them, I'll be the broker and get it for you. I know BOTH personally and have heard their testimonies and seen the proof (written documentation) of their testimonies.
By the way, does anyone out there know what condition would cause a man to experience a high volume of blood in his urine constantly with no pain? Please let me know if you do.
Thanks.
Harvey,
Painless hematuria (blood in the urine) can be a sign of bladder cancer or renal cancer. Whoever is experiencing this symptom should see a urologist very soon.
Thanks Evan. To your knowledge and from what you've read, is there any reason for that sort of thing to stop without treatment once it started?
Thanks and I appreciate the answer, I assume you're not an MD but I'm doing a little research myself.
Harvey,
Yes, cancers can undergo spontaneous remission which is probably why miracle healings most commonly deal with cancers: they're scary, deadly and the natural course of the disease may include pauses. In most cases the cancer has not left permanently and will reoccur unless treated. Remissions are tragically the source of many deaths as people go away believing that their faith healer, naturopath or whomever has "cured" them, they fail to continue treatment and then when the disease returns they are convinced that they can cure it again through prayer so don't seek proper medical treatment until it is too late.
This is also the reason why we can never conclude that prayer healed specific individuals, there's no way to know from a single anecdote whether we're looking at the natural course of the disease, an aberration or a genuine miracle. The only way to know is to try it on many people and record the results and in every solid study, the results have been negative.
So if you know someone whose cancer has gone into remission after prayer, they should seek prompt medical treatment so the cancer can be removed before it becomes aggressive once more.
Harvy,
Now, as for what I have personally experienced Harry, it can't be reduced to wishful thinking. The gentleman I refrenced with the tumor, went to the doctor, a tumor and abnormal growth...When he went back to the doctor for a reexamination and to receive his mode or method of treatment...the tumor which was visable and witnessed by the doctor was GONE.
It's not a medical impossibility that tumors spontaneously disappear by themselves.
CLICK HERE
AND HERE
AND HERE
AND HERE
Exclaiming god "healed it" is a non-sequitur. There is no direct evidence, that calling an invisible deity, in the sky, on the one-way cosmic phone, to intervene and remove tumors, actually worked. Tumors can spontaneously disappear by natural means (known and unknown) and people like harv rationalize the coincidence as supposed proof of divine intervention, while the thousands of missed hits (praying that didn't work) is rationalized to be the will of god too. Again, If something good happens to someone, it's god's will. If something bad happens, well, that's god's will too.
You must substantiate with evidence that god worked his magic as opposed to mere coincidence --good luck with that.
Furthermore, harvy must explain why other religions, separate from christianity, claim miracles such as Allah intervening and healing someone. Their faith is not geared to the christian god.
CLICK HERE
AND HERE
AND HERE
AND HERE
Funny -- how were these people healed? They didn't pray to the christian god; they didn't put their faith in the christian god. How do you suppose they were healed, harv?
Why doesn't God do this all the time?...I have NO idea.
Oh, ummmmmmmmm, could it be god doesn't exist and you delusionally attribute and rationalize coincidences to a deity?
By the way. There is a man in Evanston, IL, name Carlos Moody, who visits Africa and thrid world contries quite often and for over 40 years as a missionary. He was poisoned...that was confirmed through the local hospital. He was in the hospital and expectant to die...prayer was prayed over him, same was as what I've said and he lives today. That was over 20 years ago.
A guy named Darryel Hines in Milwaukee, WI. was struck by lightening and DIED. Medically diagnosed DEAD. His Mother prayed for him and he rose and lives and preaches TODAY as a result this was over 15 years ago.
Whoop-D-do. If the testimonies, above, about the almighty Allah healing somebody are not viable, how come these are?
--S.
It's a funny thing about faith healing... A common excuse for why so many people (and animals) suffer is that God can't/won't intervene, either for some divine hiddenness principle, free will, the power of evil or something. Yet these healings ostensibly show that God can and will intervene.
Which should make everyone question the trivial and arbitrary nature of these interventions. Good, Christian people suffer all the time, why doesn't God help them? It creates a horrible blame-the-victim culture and makes God an arbitrary, sometimes cruel and vindictive creature.
These small-scale faith healings would be impressive if the god was really tiny, so small that individual cures take most of its power and afterwards it is just tired out. Are you Christians sure you want to make your God so small?
Harvey, please listen to Evan.
My daughter started IgA nephropathy (Berger’s disease) at 12 years old. In the process of ESRF (End Stage Renal Failure) she had heavy blood in her urine for sometime as her kidneys were being damaged.
If you or anyone you know has this symptom, pray to God, but also get medical help. Cancer is deadly and life on dialysis (3 times a week for 3-5 hours a session) is a hard life. My daughter was slowly going down hill and the only way she improved was a transplant with my kidney.
If there is any medical book that covers problems with the human body it’s CMDT (Current Medical Diagnosis and Treatment) published yearly by the Lang division of McGraw-Hill.
It covers information on over 1,000 diseases and disorders (plus free online access) with each section written by top specialists.
Although this is written for doctors, it’s worth its weight in information for it’s $75.00 price (The 2007 edition had 1,923 pages covering 42 chapters with each chapter focused on a different pat of the human body.
Seriously Harvey, whether it’s you or another person, forget the debate here and use prayer while you get medical help. Lost time in getting medical help could mean someone’s life.
Regards,
Harry
Harvey, polyps or tumors can bleed intermittently, sometimes with months to years between bleeds, so remission of bleeding doesn't mean that the source of bleeding has remitted.
You can assume whatever you want about my training, but I'm board-certified family physician.
Evan,
I DIDN'T know that and thank you for the info. I appreciate it very much.
Harry,
I want to thank you for the concern also. I want you to rest assured that when I encounter the sick I always ask indivuals to remain under their Doctor's care without hesitancy. If something changes it'll be confirmed with the doctor also. So please know that I have never given any individual any advice which would jeapordize their health.
With that said, I guess I need to know some info from those willing to discuss this at length.
You're already familiar with my view of antisupernaturalism and miracles Pt1 & Pt2, and as a person of faith that should be no surprise to you.
What I need to know is what views I'm dealing with here...What's the general definition of a miracle by some of you willing to address this issue with me here?
There are generally only a few options but I'd like to hear your spin...impossible or not? possible but not probable? sometimes not always? etc. Is our continuum closed or not?
These questions and others are what this whole post redices down to. There is NO way for you to realign what I've personally experienced and seen for myself therefore the only way to really get some type of substance out of this is to deal with the fact can miracles occur period and then do they occur.
I'm interested to find out your opinions, especially from those of you who are more vocal with your assertions.
Thank you.
Harry,
1. You made an argument.
2. I questioned the premise.
3. You couldn't substantiate it.
4. End of argument.
David emphatic stated them to be over.
This claim is false. Care to show where I stated this? Asking you to defend a premise in your own argument implies no position on my part. I have not made any arguments against your claim, yet somehow you have ascribed to me a position, and even a "fundamental baptist" title? Pfft. Still waiting for that post your promised ;)
No time for mud slinging.
Harvey, I wanted to ask you if you believe demons (unclean spirits) are still roaming the earth possessing people or other hosts?
Richard,
Why wouldn't I believe in the spiritual realities. Especially as a person of faith, but why would I disbelieve something naturally that I haven't experienced but have received indirect testimony for? Example, I haven't been to England or France but I have received much indirect testimony that they exist. It would be a flaw for me to not apply the same standard to spiritual things. Wouldn't it?
Interesting article - I always hear of these healings. I would like to believe them, but I would like some backup from medical reports - before and after.
I do know of a gentleman who had lost his voice, and the doctors thought it was hopeless for it to return.
He was speaking (in a quiet raspy voice) at a small public event that was recorded, and his voice came back. No faith healers, or large ceremonies needed. His name is Duane Miller.
http://www.amazon.com/Out-Silence-Duane-Miller/dp/0785274073
Regarding signs and wonders in the Bible - No one said they would end. They are not a sign of the truth - as the anti-Christ will come with signs and wonders.
Regarding the Fox attack - God does not promise Christians to be protected from any bad occurrences.
Example, I haven't been to England or France but I have received much indirect testimony that they exist. It would be a flaw for me to not apply the same standard to spiritual things. Wouldn't it?
Have you seen photos, or heard recordings, of spiritual things, Harvey? Can you go to these spiritual things and be sure that they will be there? Do people of all religious and nonreligious persuasions agree that they exist? If not, I would say that the existence of England and France should be in a rather different category of doubt than that of spiritual things. For the record, I've been to England and France, and I can assure you that they exist; I can show you photos too.
The trouble with judging the existence of spiritual things, which are invisible, is that people have a vested interest in believing in them, which not only skews their perceptions, but also provides a rich field for charlatans. England and France exist whether anyone wants them to or not.
Zilch~ "Have you seen photos, or heard recordings, of spiritual things, Harvey?
My record is a written recorded record of those things with observations and empirical evidences commensurate with the times in which they were written. Secondly I have my own personal experiences both BEFORE and AFTER i was made aware of that record that helps confirm such experience and narrative as it was written.
Zilch~ "Can you go to these spiritual things and be sure that they will be there?
Since I already know that they are there, that really adds no dimension to my understanding. Plus the record recording those things is otherwise reliable and should be given the benefit of the doubt because of it's past success.
Zilch~ "Do people of all religious and nonreligious persuasions agree that they exist?
All in agreement isn't necessary for it to be viable or real. I remember some time ago about 100 tax advisors were given the same portfolio for a particular hypothetical person and asked to prepare their returns. The answeres were all across the board and i believe over 40 different answeres were given from the various firms. The tax code didn't change, the portfolios didn't change but the answeres were different. Does that mean that the tax code doesn't exist?
Variations in interpretation say nothing about factual existence.
Zilch~ For the record, I've been to England and France, and I can assure you that they exist; I can show you photos too.
Then you well know that indirect evidence is a GOOD CONFIRMATION of what actually exists.
Zilch ~ "The trouble with judging the existence of spiritual things, which are invisible, is that people have a vested interest in believing in them,
I have no paycheck from the spiritual world. The reality of the spiritual is a reality similar to the natural. Not being able to measure it scientifically is not a problem. Inability to measure natural things scientifically does not prohibit science either. Remember the Newtonian epoc was dramatically different from Einstien relativism, so different that we can rule nothin out.
Zilch~ "which not only skews their perceptions, but also provides a rich field for charlatans.
In my opinion the same can be said for metaphysical naturalists. There are a host of presuppostions that are brought to the table and I don't think we'll ever be able to get rid of that on both sides, but one cannot discard and rule out certain evidences and call that being interesting in true and real discovery.
Thanks.
Why wouldn't I believe in the spiritual realities. Especially as a person of faith, but why would I disbelieve something naturally that I haven't experienced but have received indirect testimony for? Example, I haven't been to England or France but I have received much indirect testimony that they exist. It would be a flaw for me to not apply the same standard to spiritual things. Wouldn't it?
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Using harv's loopy logic then he must believe in all these entities, that have been told indirectly, through testimonies:
Mermaids, Banshees, Nymphs, Elves, Pixies, Trolls, Leprechauns, Brownies, Fairies, Gnomes, Chupacabra, Mothman, Genies, Golem, Gremlins, and the list has an infinite amount of possibilities.
Also using harvy's stellar logic, he should believe in Allah, Poseidon, Krishna, Zeus, Ra, Vishnu, Odin, Athena, Baal, and the 330,000 Hindu gods alone!
So why don't you believe in these entities?
--S.
Sconnor - Only those in the Bible are true.
Harvey - Good post.
Harvy,
My record is a written recorded record of those things with observations and empirical evidences commensurate with the times in which they were written. Secondly I have my own personal experiences both BEFORE and AFTER i was made aware of that record that helps confirm such experience and narrative as it was written.
WRONG -- a rationalization is not empirical evidence. Concluding a supernatural deity healed someone is nothing but an unrealistic and lame rationalization. Please substantiate and give empirical evidence that a supernatural deity had anything to do with your observations.
Zilch~ "Can you go to these spiritual things and be sure that they will be there?
Since I already know that they are there, that really adds no dimension to my understanding.
Yawn...Since the potential of going to these spiritual things is non-existent your England France analogy fails yet on another level.
...but one cannot discard and rule out certain evidences and call that being interesting in true and real discovery.
Bottom line harv, is you have zero evidence of spiritual things; the only avenue left is to concoct absurd rationalizations and cockamamie analogies.
And again all your lame rationalizations and analogies also "prove" the existence of Allah and fairies etc. -- thanks for making an argument that Allah and Mermaids and Fairies exist.
--S.
d rob,
Sconnor - Only those in the Bible are true.
Substantiate your claim and show evidence of such.
...or can you refute my argument, specifically? Harvey argues, using the analogy, I haven't been to England or France but I have received much indirect testimony that they exist. It would be a flaw for me to not apply the same standard to spiritual things. Wouldn't it?
People, through out time, have given indirect testimony to those entities I listed -- therefore those entites must exist, going by harv's loopy logic.
See this is how it works, someone tries to prove the existence of spiritual things, using lame and absurd analogies. I submit an argument contrary to the specifics of the argument; now you must argue why my argument is wrong. Making an unsubstantiated conclusion (Only those in the Bible are true) is not an adequate refutation nor is it an argument. Care to refute the specifics of my argument?
Additionally, Baal is in the bible does that god exist? Is he true?
--S.
D Rob
Why is only the Bible to be taken seriously?
In any case, if that's your position, please provide evidence that the Vedas are not inerrant, if you would.
Sconnor said - Substantiate your claim and show evidence of such.
How could I ever do that and satisfy you? All you would do is quote some scholar as to why the Bible is not true, and it would just be back and forth. I'm sure you guys have done that already.
Philip asked- Why is only the Bible to be taken seriously?
Is. 40:8 - The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.
I can only speak for myself - God promises to take care of my needs - and He does. He gives wisdom for living life on the earth. He has already stated what will happen in the future - and how the earth will end, and He will reign. Some of the future proclamations are taking shape day by day.
I know you don't believe the Bible - no problem. I ain't asking you to. But there must be something to it if numerous people seek to debunk it. Why bother if it isn't true?
D Rob,
Excellent post my friend.
Some of these anti-Christ advocates only seek to fulfill their God complex through much philosophical meandering. Some of them such as Sconnor wouldn't recognize a substantiated claim or argument if it bit them in the arm.
Kay Sera Sera! Jesus Is and he WILL be!
So back on point...I wanna know the naturalist views here if you're not afraid to say so in front of your athiest friends...
None of you have even offered to define a miracle. Before you can rule something out you've got to at least define it...at least I would think...What is a miracle? Give me the definition? Can or do miracles occur or not?
David,
You totally failed to answer why God did not protect the Christians when the fox attacked at the church. Perhaps, now you must explain your elusive apologetics.
Thus, you remain an excellent example of a Religious Atheist.
A failure to explain presupposes a requirement, but no such thing exists. Nice try.
By the way, a Christian requesting clarification or offering critique is not doing apologetics. Its just basic critical thinking really. An atheist could ask the exact same questions I did, and actually they should in order to examine the soundness of your argument.
d rob: “Regarding signs and wonders in the Bible - No one said they would end. They are not a sign of the truth - as the anti-Christ will come with signs and wonders.”
“Regarding the Fox attack - God does not promise Christians to be protected from any bad occurrences.”
“Sconnor - Only those in the Bible are true.”
Re: d rob, my point is that while a Religious Atheist don’t appeal to God as a direct intervention, lets say in the fox attack, they explain the situation just as a full fledged atheist would! Thus, it happen and no one can explain why except the rabies.
While you and Harvey both believe in some divine power working some where, it simply a toss-up as to when and where these have happen.
My point in the newspaper article represents an event where many Christians are in danger and, in the end, the out come is exactly as if they were all atheist.
If, as you claim, “Only those in the Bible are true”, then why even be a Christian if one has nothing more (In the case) than atheist have in the supernatural?
David:
JMU has a Philosophy and Religion Dept. (and NOT a Religion Dept.) which has a philosophy to religion professor ratio of worst than 2:1.
Of the remaining 6 religion professors only 2 teach in the area of Israelite / early Judaism and Early Christianity.
Little wonder you are more into the philosophy of religion and not the claims of New Testament Christianity.
Although I don’t agree with Harvey, but at least I know where he’s coming from.
D rob,
How could I ever do that and satisfy you? All you would do is quote some scholar as to why the Bible is not true, and it would just be back and forth. I'm sure you guys have done that already.
Then your claims are meaningless.
I, too, could make absurd, unsubstantiated, claims, without evidence, all day long, just like you:
I can say, my car is not running well.
Invisible gremlins are to blame.
There have been credible, indirect, testimonies gathered over the years for such phenomena including gremlins sabotaging airplanes, in the Royal Air Force.
Additionally, the devout muslim zealot makes the claim the qur'an is true. What thought process do you use to deny this claim? It's probably close to the same thought process I use to deny your claim, only I ask both zealots (christian and muslim) to offer evidence for their claims. Evidently, you have no evidence to offer.
Substantiate your claims or they are not even worth the brain power you used to type them.
Furthermore, I noticed you conveniently, ignored my other arguments; you couldn't argue the salient points, specifically, I made about harvey's illogical analogies, which renders Harv's exclamation, "Excellent post my friend", obsolete.
I can only speak for myself - God promises to take care of my needs - and He does.
Which is nothing but a rationalization, that concludes, because some, supposed, deity, supposedly, takes care of you, by gum, there is a god. That is a fallacy -- a non-sequitur. Not evidence.
Also, your argument fails; for you have to address all the people god neglects, the ones where, needs, are not taken care of. As in one example, why doesn't god take care of the people who die of hunger every 3.8 seconds in the world — 75% of these people are children? That’s six million children who suffer and die of malnutrition, every year, before their 5th birthday.
So while your, arbitrary, needs are, supposedly, being taken care of (an occasional big juicy steak, a steady pay check, or whatever subjective need you would offer up) the needs of millions are getting the blind eye treatment from your, supposed, all-loving god.
Is. 40:8 - The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.
Yeah right. OK, let's start with these words from your schizophrenic, hypocritical, god and his declaration: Thou shalt not kill -- you know, the one from the tablets, with all those nuggets of moral wisdom.
How come, throughout the bible, god then contradicts himself and tells others to kill, like in this example?
1Sam 15:3 The Lord says, Go and attack the Amalekites! Destroy them and all their possessions. Don't have any pity. Kill their men, women, children, and even their babies.
I'm confused D rob, which of god's words, kill or not to kill, is the one that stands forever?
Why does god's word change? Why does god go against his proclamations and insist on killing innocent children and babies?
I know you don't believe the Bible - no problem. I ain't asking you to. But there must be something to it if numerous people seek to debunk it. Why bother if it isn't true?
Another non-sequitur. People try and debunk the qur'an too -- by your loopy logic there must be something to the qur'an, also.
Harvey,
Some of these anti-Christ advocates only seek to fulfill their God complex through much philosophical meandering. Some of them such as Sconnor wouldn't recognize a substantiated claim or argument if it bit them in the arm.
...and yet you can offer no evidence; just, meandering, rationalizations -- que sera sera.
None of you have even offered to define a miracle. Before you can rule something out you've got to at least define it...at least I would think...What is a miracle? Give me the definition? Can or do miracles occur or not?
OK, I'll bite.
mir·a·cle
NOUN:
1. An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God: "Miracles are spontaneous, they cannot be summoned, but come of themselves" (Katherine Anne Porter).
2. One that excites admiring awe. See Synonyms at wonder.
3. A miracle play.
Please make your point, already, harv.
--S.
Harry,
Where on earth did you derive such an opinion about me? I majored in Computer Information Systems and minored in jazz piano at JMU.
This comes up quite often in the world of Anti-Christ advocacy:
"So while your, arbitrary, needs are, supposedly, being taken care of (an occasional big juicy steak, a steady pay check, or whatever subjective need you would offer up) the needs of millions are getting the blind eye treatment from your, supposed, all-loving god."
I challenge ANY of you that feel so remorseful over things like this character "supposedly" does...you quit eating your steak first. You give all of your money to fix it. You leave your home everday to address it, or should you even have a home in light of it?
That's a"bleeding heart" argument that is ridiculous in every way, and boarderline immoral especially if you know this and do nothing about it and claim that someone else (even a God that you don't believe exists) should.
Back to something substantive:
Miracles : "inexplicable by the laws of nature
So your position is that miracles operate apart from natural laws? Or is it that they just can't be explained by natural laws? Based on the word "Inexplicable" this suggests that we live in an open continuum?
Is that the position of the readers here?
David, all the more reason to place you in the mind set I find you in!
Harvey and d rob: I have a miracle boom that can sweep the floor and clean the house all by itself. I personally know this to have happened several times.
I have gone to work and when I have retuned, the broom had totally cleaned my whole house!
My wife told me she did not do it as she left for work right after I did.
If you two try and deny this miracle, then I challenge you both to explain how a broom can clean by it’s self?
I know you are an Anti-Miracle Broom advocate, but the facts speak for themselves!
Harry,
we can play that too. Was the "miracle broom" merely a modern invention like certain medicines etc. or did the "miracle broom" actually work outside of natural laws?
I need you to define "miracle" for me in order for this to work, so we're back at square one.
The word "miracle broom" could be something that you bought from the store. If you have a "miracle broom" that you brought from the store it would more likely be a natural device with no supernatural explaination necessary...
Let's draw this out since you wannna do this...Does your "miracle broom" violate or work in accordance with the laws of nature?
Why do you christians, specifically D rob and Harvy, want to believe and attribute God with healings or what we consider miracles.
First, Jesus make claims to being God. Then he say's "look what I can do!" Goes on to have himself killed and buried, does a disappearing act from the tomb.
(Thinks to himself, "this will surely make for a huge story".) Reappears and says, "touch me, who else could have done this except a god." "This will forever be a sign to you that nothing good done unto you cannot be done without my intervention."
I'm sure you see where I'm going with this. Since I know you believe the story above, I can see why you believe seemingly answered prayers and healings are an act of Jesus. But what is the purpose of him doing these things and being picky about when and which person, people or situation to indicate his presence.
It would seem he is no different than the devil, as he makes you wonder about his existence with so much confusion. If God really is trying to provide us with signs that he is the only true god compare to other peoples god, why not be obvious with them. The devil does the same thing. If Satan is really trying his best to make sure we don't believe in God, that would mean he thinks we already do, so why bother hiding too, giving us the signs he would think would mislead us about God. But at the same time God doesn't want us to fully know also because we need to have faith. Therefore, both God and Satan like to play mind games and have us assuming all the time, which is unnecessary mental abuse coming from superior beings.
Do you guys think if God heals someone without them realizing it, and they don't give God credit, will he get mad he didn't get the glory and take it back?
I think all these miracles and what have you, are infringing on the supposed freewill he's given us, which makes freewill really an illusion.
Andre,
You offer and make some good observations. I would like to deal with a few of them.
"But what is the purpose of him doing these things and being picky about when and which person, people or situation to indicate his presence."
Those things are done according to HIS will or what he wishes. Look you and I do the same thing. You do some things regularly. If you're married some things that your wife can count on and I'm sure she does some things you can count on. To say that either of you are silly and don't exist simply because you have your own ways is obtuse to say the least. God is entitled and that entitlement is what we call soveriegnty. Why he does X? I don't know. I expect to spend a lifetime trying to understand HIS will because he is infinately greater than I.
"Do you guys think if God heals someone without them realizing it, and they don't give God credit, will he get mad he didn't get the glory and take it back?"
Me personally, NO.
"But at the same time God doesn't want us to fully know also because we need to have faith."
In your spiritual conflict story the thing that's missed is that there is NO OTHER God but God. All other's including the devil are illusions. The devil is not described as god or God class being. in the Christian worldview faith is based on EVIDENCE which is both empirical, testimonial, and supernatural which are all a part of our continuum of existence. The Naturalist limits their existence to the mere physical existence which is the critical flaw naturalism.
" think all these miracles and what have you, are infringing on the supposed freewill he's given us, which makes freewill really an illusion.
Well, one thing we can say for sure is that for the naturalist "free will" is DEFINATELY an illusion. For the metaphysical naturalist you're only acting in accordance with natural laws, the genome and preprogrammed genetic processes. The naturalist has the greater delusion if he/she thinks otherwise.
Harry,
You have no basis for such a thing, unless you have been reading comments by another david (there are two of us).
Harvey: Miracle = Magic!
Now who is mightier? Satan or God?
As a Christian, you are now following THE supreme God who created the universe. The main facts you need to know are these:
A. Your God is omnipotent (Having unlimited power and authority).
B. Your God is omnipresent (He is present everywhere).
C. Your God is omniscient (Having total knowledge).
D. Your God commands billions of angels of which just one could destroy the world.
As a Christian, you are part of a large and diverse group totaling over 2.1 billion members that has a worldwide yearly budget that totals approximately one half of one trillion dollars.
With all this power, who are you at war against?
It’s Satan (a fallen angel) is your main and only adversary who leads a small rag-tag army (1/3 the size of God's) of fallen angels (demons).
A. Satan has limited power (Only what little control God gives him).
C. Satan has no earthly members (Just a few "Dabblers").
D. Satan has no budget.
AND YET...
According to God's OWN WORD , the Bible (especially the Book of Revelation), God, with all the above supreme attributes, IS LOSING a battle in a world He created and even sacrificed His only begotten son (himself) to win.
Most of humanity will one day stand before your God at the Great White Throne of Judgment to "give an account" of why they as mortal sinful creatures with limited understandings, SCREWED UP, and then they will be cast spiritually alive into the Lake of Fire (whose smoke rises forever), i.e., blamed for their loss of innocence in the Garden of Eden / Original Sin for all eternity.
By God’s own book, the Bible, Satan is mightier than a god who needs to be constantly propped up to even appear to be functioning.
Harry, "Harvey: Miracle = Magic!"
OK Harry, you've made this about as clear as mud. Magic (in my understanding) follows the laws of nature because it isn't real, just illusionary. So are you saying that Miracles, being the equivalent of magic, follows the laws of nature?
I need this cleared up.
LOOK, if you're going to say something doesn't exist, you owe it to me and others to at least define it, ESPECIALLY since you want to write an article with my name attatched to it. All I'm asking for is for you to define miracles for me.
To show the importance of the question here if miracles= magic, and magic follows natural laws, we all know that "magic" exists therefore miracles do to...somehow I don't believe that you want to make that admission.
So far as the rest of your opinions, please don't be offended that I don't bother them any more than I already have. I don't want to be sidetracked.
I was looking back at this definition by Sconnor, since this has become somewhat very interesting to me. The definition he gave said:
"1. An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God:
So the event only has the APPEARANCE of inexplicability by natural law. This would mean that the event actually operates according to natural law?
Is that right?
The definition goes on to say:
"Miracles are spontaneous, they cannot be summoned, but come of themselves"
Although this definition is garbage, the only other one that's been presented here has been By Harry in which he says that miracles are magic...The reason the above definition is garbage, it first says that they (miracles)only have an "appearance" of inexplicability by natural law, then states that they are "spontaneous"...I would assume that we are talking about spontaneous interventions of natural law?
Is that right? Do you guys generally agree to this?
Please let me know.
Harvey - Wouldn't you think it's irrelevant of God's sovereignty if his will is to have me believing it was him when it wasn't him. I'm not disregarding his would be authority, but since I've realized from experience, what I would tend to think was "his will", turned out to be "cause and effect", there's no point in giving credit when not due. I would rather say I don't know for starters, but if christianity insists "Jesus did it" when evidence tells me otherwise, I'd be inclined to think he doesn't exist then.
The difference between God and my wife is that I can verify her actions, observe and analyze her reasons personally, and I don't have to guess if it was her or even if she exists. I don't need that kind of faith in my wife.
You say God is infinately greater than you, why would you want to believe that when he didn't tell you that himself? Out of all humans that has ever and will exist, how many of those people has he told that to, and will tell? Do you think for instance telling it to one person to tell everyone else is a way for him not to seem like he's boasting? Or do you think it's more like he never told anyone that?
When it comes to faith, based on empirical, supernatural and testimonial evidence, that goes back to the point that you could be giving credit when not due. You can have all the faith you want in something, it doesn't mean it was that something. Even when we think we have evidence for example in a court case, innocent people you and I know exists, gets credit for doing something they didn't. How much more easier do you think it is to prove God did it, much less to have faith?
Let me make a point about what I was getting at regarding freewill. Since you believe God intervenes by answering your prayers a few times, and heals one or two people, this means that he let's his freewilling be done, when he doesn't answer a prayer or heals, because our sufferings must occur if there's freewill. But this is very similar to John's post about the greater lesser deeds. Because God never seems to work his miracles when tsunami hits or a earthquake shakes, only for lesser and individual conflicts like cancer or brain tumor. So why is intervention of our freewill not good enough for the greater obstacles.
harv,
I challenge ANY of you that feel so remorseful over things like this character "supposedly" does...you quit eating your steak first. You give all of your money to fix it. You leave your home everday to address it, or should you even have a home in light of it?
That's a"bleeding heart" argument that is ridiculous in every way, and boarderline immoral especially if you know this and do nothing about it and claim that someone else (even a God that you don't believe exists) should.
Because harvey's inability to deal with the argument, specifically, he has to once again diverge and change the subject. Not being able to justify his ridiculous god concept, he must muster another ad hominem attack and question the philanthropic endeavors of others.
Harvey can not explain why his supposed, all-loving, god supposedly, intervenes for some, while he neglects others, who suffer, in the most heinous ways, now offers an absurd, hyperbolic, argument that because people don't sacrifice everything, in lieu of the suffering that exists, that somehow salvages god's reputation -- but when we examine harv's argument more closely it fails, miserably, on at least four points:
1. Your argument only bolsters my argument, by admitting, that it would only be right to help people who are suffering. So again why does god neglect his earthly children who suffer so egregiously while he supposedly helps others, knowing -- by your admission and argument -- that it would be wrong to sit on your ass (just as god does) and do nothing?
2. Trying to make a comparison with your supposed all-mighty, creator of the universe, god with the imperfect and weak humans is ludicrous.
3. Additionally, you are too narrow minded to recognize human suffering before the 20th and 21st centuries, where humanity couldn't possibly intervene on behalf of the suffering multitudes, because of lack of technology, lack of modern medicine, great water and land divides, inadequate transportation or no transportation at all -- where people couldn't drop everything, because either, they knew nothing about the suffering, that existed or it was entirely beyond their ability and scope to help -- while presumably your all-mighty, creator, god has the ability and could help but yet, he still turns a blind eye and morbidly neglects his earthly children who suffer in unthinkable ways.
4. How, exactly, does it help people who are starving or suffering to simply give up necessities like shelter or giving up indulgences like having a big steak, once in awhile? Maybe this is the lame excuse your all-loving god uses as he sits on his throne and does nothing, neglecting his earthly children: I gave up a bunch of things; that should suffice for my inaction and letting people suffer. Furthermore, how could I continue to help those if I went to extremes -- like harv suggest -- like giving all my money and giving up my house?
harv is reaching here. He's got nowhere else to go, except vomiting up one preposterous assertion after another.
Funny, harv, thinks he knows, god answers prayers and causes miracles to happen -- without any evidence that it is god doing these supposed great feats -- but for some reason harvey doesn't know why god neglects the rest of his earthly children, who suffer in unimaginable ways. How is harv privy to some of the information about god -- that he asserts -- while not being privy to other god information? Could it be that it is only a product of his imagination, nothing but illogical rationalizations?
Still waiting for you to supply evidence, that it is a deity that is intervening, supposedly answering prayers and causing miracles.
--S.
Sconnor, I'll endulge you for a minute only because you "think" you make such a point but you really offer nothing...
First, I have a empirical evidence that includes a testimonial record that allows for "miracles" from God and allows that I know they're from him because not ony was it contained within the testimony, but that testimony was also a contract such as a legally binding agreement made in it's time.
Now you may be like millions of other feel that contracts are only worth the paper they are written on, but God and morally responsible individuals don't. Therefore, God made a contract with covenants and tenents which allow for his intervention under certain terms and conditions. The contract terms are always in my best interest.
He has solidified that contracts through "immutable" facts of the shedding of blood, and resurrection. Further he has moved upon and spoken to the conscience (hearts) of them that would listen providing personal experience for everyone that will acquiest to voice. I know the God of the bible prforms as he says paritally because of the fact that NO OTHER diety or system has provided the same or similar promise and based on temr of the contract HE cannot lie and I am conciously aware and perceptive of HIS presence patially because I do not deny the total reality in which I live.
The naturalist knows none of this because he thinks, like you, that the natural realm is ALL inclusive of all reality and like a lame duck during duck hunting season that's how you perceive the natural world.
Finally, the church and individuals in the church down through at least the last 2000 years has stood head and shoulders above any instrument of mankind and instrument of science in bringing help, hope and healing to humankind. The church is unparallelled by any organization secular or otherwise in helping humanity.
The question should be reversed. We should ask why that is? Since your claim is that morality and compassion for human kind is a genetic process and not motivated by an ultimate moral code or moral law giver, WHY has it been that over the years NON THEISTS have been derilict in the duties to better mankind as you put it?
If all morality is the same then we should be able to recount an equal number of naturalists and non-theist organizations bringing hope and healing to humanity...but we don't see that...WHY? Could it be because objective rationalism is a flawed premise to begin with only allowing self service and catering to self-interest?
Or could it be because the supreme moral giver has given those that follow him, as flawed as they often are, a greater sense of committment to humanity and rsponsibility to personal service on a cumulativve basis? There could be many answeres but one thing I'm convinced of
YOU DON'T KNOW!
Now let's get back to the real because Sconnor you're boring...
I wanna know more about miracles. Since you advocates want to pick on me for telling what I know, see and experience for myself, at least someone can answer my questions. We were on a good track here let's get back to that...
One says miracles= magic, the other says they only "appear" to be inexplicable "spontaneous interventions" to natural law (whatever that is)...All I want to know is that what is believed around here?
Harry, "Harvey: Miracle = Magic!"
That’s right and that’s the Bibles definition. Exodus 7:8 - 13 where god’s so-called miracles are equated Pharaoh’s sorcerers.
Lets up the wager:
Tell you what Harvey, I have a 64 year old friend who is on dialysis and needs a transplant who is a Christian.
I’ll go to my attorney and have a contract drawn up at my expense stating that my dialysis’ friend will go up to your church (again, at my expense) to be prayed over and healed.
However, should he not be healed him and he comes back still needing dialysis, your church will be sued for all expenses: Attorney fees, Travel, meals, lodging and interest accrued on my credit card.
I’ll have my attorney forward the contract for signing notarizing by the elders of your church.
This is only fair if you really think God can do miracles.
What do you say Harvey. Put your money and faith where your keyboard is.
If you agree, please list the address of your church and the elder's names for the attorney to list as guarantees.
Harvey, the ball is with you and your miracle working God’s court.
What will it be?!
Harry, Harry, Harry,
Oh how thou dost become so foolish and careless with thy requests.
Now first of all Harry, I'll be glad to pray for your friend anywhere and any day. I will be glad to pray that your friend be healed and receive a blessing, and I believe he/she will be blessed in every way...but what did I say from the beginning?
PHB~ "God heals at his bidding and I've witnessed that FIRST HAND according to believing prayer"
Now I could do this: pray one of those Mt. Carmel prayers of Elijah and you know what? I believe that God will hear me so that you will be shaken and do what you said that you would do. Just in case you forgot:
Harry ~"If Rev. Burnett COULD prove that objectively something did happen, than I would term him a true New Testament Christian and, hey, I would be one too!"
So I guess this works two ways Harry. Would you convert to become a Christian IF I prayed for your friend and God heald him/her?
Would you turn on your athiest friends on this board and suddenly change and recant ALL your previous arguments and criticisms, and begin to debunk the debunkers?
Would you repent and make Jesus Lord of you life and receive HIM as savior and use your energy to proclaim HIS name the rest of your life?
I admit, only God can change your heart, but that's no more difficult than changing a kidney, reversing a condition or prolonging life.
To the point that's additional reason why your analogy that Miracle = Magic is flawed. Magic is also controlled by men, miracles are controlled by God.
You remind me of Herrod who wanted to see Jesus do some great miracle. By the way Herrod didn't get what he wanted...God's not your puppet on a string to command when you want, but I'd like to know why this friend and why now? Is seeing and experiencing a miracle really for your friend, or is it for you Harry? Be honest.
Contact me by email Harry, I'd love to meet your friend and pray for him/her. Let's see what we can do.
Harry McCall, Christian Apologist. Has a nice ring to it doesn't it?
Now we gettin somewhere!
Harvey, my Religious Atheist friend, I am now working on my next post on how the Bible debunks itself.
I will quote you again in my post to prove some of my point, so you have been forewarned.
Plus, another post in the works is how the Bible gives a confused and incoherent doctrine of the afterlife.
So, stay tuned!
Harry,
Allright pal. I'm glad I can contribute so much to the site-LOL
I'm sure people don't understand, they must expect us to have a hate-hate relationship but I don't take it that way and I don't believe you do either.
This is good for me, keeps me moving, and studying.
Thanks.
Harvey, you are welcomed.
harvey,
Sconnor, I'll endulge you for a minute...
Well -- gee, thanks for that. It's also refreshing you didn't resort to venomous attacks and disparaging remarks -- it's the christian thing to do and should have been done earlier.
First, I have a empirical evidence that includes a testimonial record that allows for "miracles" from God and allows that I know they're from him because not ony was it contained within the testimony, but that testimony was also a contract such as a legally binding agreement made in it's time.
Riiiiiight, and I have a testimonial record that was given to the last prophet Muhammad -- therefore the qur'an is evidence too.
He has solidified that contracts through "immutable" facts of the shedding of blood, and resurrection. Further he has moved upon and spoken to the conscience (hearts) of them that would listen providing personal experience for everyone that will acquiest to voice.
Facts? You are just regurgitating a doctrine based on your interpretation of the bible -- no doubt cannibalized from one of your yearly, sermons.
I too could parrot the words from the qur'an or from the book of mormon, but it is not evidence, nor is it fact -- just like the holy book you devoted your whole life to.
I know the God of the bible prforms as he says paritally because of the fact that NO OTHER diety or system has provided the same or similar promise and based on temr of the contract HE cannot lie and I am conciously aware and perceptive of HIS presence patially because I do not deny the total reality in which I live.
Come on. Argument from personal experience -- which boils down to, I know god exists because I feel his presence and my reality is the correct reality.
...NO OTHER diety or system has provided the same or similar promise and based on temr of the contract...
Except Allah does provide a similar promise and if you pray and are faithful you can be healed by him. Read these testimonials, they sound, exactly, like you.
Here's an example for your reading pleasure:
This narration about the People of the Ditch also highlights an important aspect of the 'aqeedah of Ahlus-Sunnah, and that is, that it is possible for the allies ('Awljyaa) of Allah to perform miracles (karamaat) by His permission. The ability of the Prophets of Allah to perform miracles, by Allah's leave, is well known and widely accepted by Muslims, but many Muslims are skeptical when it comes to accepting the ability of ordinary Muslims to perform miracles, even though there are many well-documented cases of such events.
CLICK HERE
AND HERE
AND HERE
AND HERE
PHB asserts,"God heals at his bidding and I've witnessed that FIRST HAND according to believing prayer"
Again, supply evidence that it was the one true christian god that intervened.
The problem, Harv, is you got two religions claiming the same exact thing you are claiming, but one claims it is the mighty allah who heals at his bidding, through faith, while the other claims it is the christian god.
The naturalist knows none of this because he thinks, like you, that the natural realm is ALL inclusive of all reality.
WRONG -- there are an infinite amount of "somethings" out there that might exist, but until you can offer real evidence, there is no reason to believe in your personal testimonies, imaginative speculations or your superstitious fairy tales.
I noticed you conveniently ignored and diverge from my specific arguments, refuting your ridiculous arguments comparing your all-mighty, creator of the universe, god with that of imperfect humans.
Here they are again. Can you tackle them, specifically or will you diverge again?
1. Your argument only bolsters my argument, by admitting, that it would only be right to help people who are suffering. So again why does god neglect his earthly children who suffer so egregiously while he supposedly helps others, knowing -- by your admission and argument -- that it would be wrong to sit on your ass (just as god does) and do nothing?
2. Trying to make a comparison with your supposed all-mighty, creator of the universe, god with the imperfect and weak humans is ludicrous.
3. Additionally, you are too narrow minded to recognize human suffering before the 20th and 21st centuries, where humanity couldn't possibly intervene on behalf of the suffering multitudes, because of lack of technology, lack of modern medicine, great water and land divides, inadequate transportation or no transportation at all -- where people couldn't drop everything, because either, they knew nothing about the suffering, that existed or it was entirely beyond their ability and scope to help -- while presumably your all-mighty, creator, god has the ability and could help but yet, he still turns a blind eye and morbidly neglects his earthly children who suffer in unthinkable ways.
4. How, exactly, does it help people who are starving or suffering to simply give up necessities like shelter or giving up indulgences like having a big steak, once in awhile? Maybe this is the lame excuse your all-loving god uses as he sits on his throne and does nothing, neglecting his earthly children: I gave up a bunch of things; that should suffice for my inaction and letting people suffer. Furthermore, how could I continue to help those if I went to extremes -- like harv suggest -- like giving all my money and giving up my house?
Finally, the church and individuals in the church down through at least the last 2000 years has stood head and shoulders above any instrument of mankind and instrument of science in bringing help, hope and healing to humankind.
MORE DIVERGING? This wasn't an argument about who has done more to heal humanity.
Furthermore your claim is preposterous.
...but if you insist on going there...
If it was not for science we wouldn't know what was in the water that was making us sick. We wouldn't know about bacterias, germs and viruses, which we can now treat. We wouldn't have shots for measles, chicken pox, TB, ETC. What about penicillin, it's all science baby. Not to mention science eradicated smallpox and it is the end of the line for other diseases such as leprosy, measles, Guinea-worm disease, Neonatal Tetanus, Lymphatic filariasis, Chagas disease, Onchocerciasis and, yes, even Polio, only to be hampered by getting the vital immunizations to third world or war torn nations. Plagues like the bubonic plague are things of the past -- all thanks to science.
Hopefully you or a loved one are never in a serious car wreck, but if you were, would you want to be transported to a church, in the back of your car, so a bible could be placed over your head and oil rubbed on you or would you rather be transported by ambulance, to a hospital where science has been instrumental in saving lives, what with it's new-fangled life support machines and special chemistry to help you through the pain and surgeries -- all because of science? Come on get real!
The church is unparallelled by any organization secular or otherwise in helping humanity.
Which church? Jehovah Witeness? Mormons?
Since your claim is that morality and compassion for human kind is a genetic process and not motivated by an ultimate moral code or moral law giver, WHY has it been that over the years NON THEISTS have been derilict in the duties to better mankind as you put it?
List of secular organizations:
DonorsChoose.org
a simple way to provide students in need with resources that our public schools often lack.
The Union of Concerned Scientists
The leading science-based non-profit working for a healthy environment and safer world.
American Red Cross
The American Red Cross, a humanitarian organization led by volunteers, guided by its Congressional Charter and the Fundamental Principles of the International Red Cross Movement, will provide relief to victims of disasters and help people prevent, prepare for, and respond to emergencies. The USA's premier emergency response organization, over 91% of Red Cross spending is on charitable services.
United Nations Children's Fund
UNICEF mobilizes political will and material resources to help countries, particularly developing countries, ensure a "first call for children" and to build their capacity to form appropriate policies and deliver services for children and their families. UNICEF provides emergency and disaster relief.
Doctors without Borders
Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) is an international independent medical humanitarian organization that delivers emergency aid to people affected by armed conflict, epidemics, natural and man-made disasters, and exclusion from health care in nearly 70 countries.
The World Health Organization (WHO)
is a specialized agency of the United Nations (UN) that acts as a coordinating authority on international public health.
Amnesty International
AI’s vision is of a world in which every person enjoys all of the human rights enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and other international human rights standards.
In pursuit of this vision, AI’s mission is to undertake research and action focused on preventing and ending grave abuses of the rights to physical and mental integrity, freedom of conscience and expression, and freedom from discrimination, within the context of its work to promote all human rights.
Oxfam International
Oxfam International is a confederation of 12 organizations working together with over 3,000 partners in more than 100 countries to find lasting solutions to poverty, suffering and injustice. The Oxfams operate in over 100 countries worldwide working with local partners to alleviate poverty and injustice.
The Nature Conservancy
The Nature Conservancy is a leading international, nonprofit organization dedicated to preserving the diversity of life on Earth. An environmental group that protects natural habitats and the wildlife within them. Focuses on "science-based" initiatives.
Population Connection
Population Connection is the national grassroots population organization that educates young people and advocates progressive action to stabilize world population at a level that can be sustained by Earth's resources. Works against faith-based policies that are supported by the Religious Right.
Womens Health Organizations
EngenderHealth
an international nonprofit organization that has been working for 60 years to make reproductive health services safe, available, and sustainable for women and men worldwide.
HIV/AIDS
Treatment Action Campaign
campaign for treatment for people with HIV and to reduce new HIV infections. Our efforts have resulted in many life-saving interventions, including the implementation of country-wide mother-to-child transmission prevention and antiretroviral treatment programmes.
Children in Poor countries
PlanUSA
an organization committed to helping children, their families and communities in 49 developing countries around the world.
...Or could it be because the supreme moral giver has given those that follow him, as flawed as they often are, a greater sense of committment to humanity and rsponsibility to personal service on a cumulativve basis?
I wonder where the sense of commitment and responsibility to personal service comes from for organizations such as Amnesty International, Red Cross or any of the secular organizations I listed above -- Hmmmmmmm?
Additionally, you would have to account for all the other religions, in the world, who don't follow him (the christian supreme moral giver) who do have a commitment and responsibility to personal service. Or did the supreme moral giver sprinkle his morality dust on them as well? Which begs the question, why did he give them a moral compass and then supposedly neglect the the unbelievers?
Considering other religions, let's take the religion of Islam, as one example, who do have a commitment and responsibility to personal service:
Charity is not just recommended by Islam, it is required of every financially stable Muslim. Giving charity to those who deserve it is part of Muslim character and one of the Five Pillars of Islamic practice. Zakat is viewed as “compulsory charity”; it is an obligation for those who have received their wealth from God to respond to those members of the community in need.
The Third Pillar of Islam:
Zakat, or alms-giving. This is the practice of giving based on accumulated wealth, and is obligatory for all Muslims who can afford it. A fixed portion is spent to help the poor or needy, and also to assist the spread of Islam. The zakat is considered a religious obligation (as opposed to voluntary charity) that the well-off owe to the needy because their wealth is seen as a "trust from God's bounty". The Qur'an and the hadith also suggest a Muslim give even more as an act of voluntary alms-giving (sadaqah).
A list of muslim organizations who seem to have a sense of commitment and responsibility to personal service
Muslim Hands
www.muslimhands.com
a UK Registered Charity (No. 1105056) and a signatory to the Code of Conduct for the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement. Muslim Hands' trustees, who are all volunteers, form the governing body of Muslim Hands and are legally responsible for all of the organisation's activities under the Charities Act.
Islamic Relief
www.islamic-relief.com
Islamic Relief (IR) is an international relief and development charity, which aims to alleviate the suffering of the world’s poorest people. It is an independent Non-Governmental Organisation (NGO) founded in the UK in 1984 by Dr Hany El Banna
Islamic American Zakat Foundation
www.iazf.org
The Islamic-American Zakat Foundation is a 501 (c)(3) tax-exempt religious and charitable organization.Their mission is to provide assistance for food, shelter, clothing and transportation for the poor and needy, orphans, wayfarers, and other persons and needs deserving of charity under Islamic law by assessing, collecting and distributing obligatory and voluntary charity called zakat and sadaqa. Our primary objective is to serve poor and needy Muslims in the United States, eligible non-Muslims are also helped and some aid is sent abroad to help poor or needy orphans and other children.
Rahima foundation
www.rahima.org
Rahima Foundation is a "San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose" Bay Area based non-profit, non-political, 501 (c) (3) charitable and educational organization (Tax ID #77-0442850) that does not discriminate in its provision of services on the basis of race, color, religious affiliation, sex, sexual orientation, age, disability, physical appearance, national origin, language, educational background or veteran status. No funds are used for any lobbying or any other political activity.
International Islamic Charitable Organization
www.iico.net
IICO is an independent non-political organization which offers a wide range of pure humanitarian services. IICO is working worldwide. It provides services for people all over the world regardless of their race, or nationality. IICO is providing help for the needy in social, economical, educational, medical, and cultural fields as well urgent relief aids in case of war, natural, disasters, epidemics, famines, and similar circumstances.
QAAF Aid Worldwide
www.qaafaid.org
UK registered charity, (CR NO: 1106445) Qaaf Aid worldwide works towards attaining the relief of poverty, need, hardship, distress and sickness anywhere in the world. in particular but not exclusively, Asia or Africa. Any country affected by natural causes, wars, conflicts, foreign and domestic primarily by the provision of food, clothing, and sanitation and cleans drinking water. To the advancement of education of those persons in need and orphans anywhere in the world by the provision of training centers, workshops and educational establishments. PROJECTS: Orphan sponsorship, Education, Development projects, Water wells & Food program, Medical aid & Immunization, Disaster relief. QAAF AID WORLDWIDE aims to secure sponsorship for orphans to provide them with a better future.
There could be many answeres but one thing I'm convinced of
YOU DON'T KNOW!
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Then anser this; how come muslims have a sense of commitment and responsibility to personal service? Weird, huh?
Now, you do realize there are many more organizations -- secular and other religious affiliations who are just as generous and giving as you humble christians -- right? And all of them don't follow your supreme christian moral giver. So where did they get there morality from Hmmmmmmmmmmmm?
Still waiting for you to provide evidence that it was your christian god -- that did all the healing -- as per your testimony and not just a rationalized conclusion, based on a holy book and interpretation, you know, like what the religious muslim also concludes.
--S.
sconner- thanks: nice work.
Harvey- you say:
All in agreement isn't necessary for it to be viable or real. I remember some time ago about 100 tax advisors were given the same portfolio for a particular hypothetical person and asked to prepare their returns. The answeres were all across the board and i believe over 40 different answeres were given from the various firms. The tax code didn't change, the portfolios didn't change but the answeres were different. Does that mean that the tax code doesn't exist?
Not pertinent. Did any of these tax advisors claim that tax codes do not exist?
I have no paycheck from the spiritual world.
A ticket to Heaven is even better than a paycheck, and more incentive to believe, is it not?
sconner: you did some great work!!!
sconner: “If it was not for science we wouldn't know what was in the water that was making us sick. We wouldn't know about bacterias, germs and viruses, which we can now treat. We wouldn't have shots for measles, chicken pox, TB, ETC. What about penicillin, it's all science baby. Not to mention science eradicated smallpox and it is the end of the line for other diseases such as leprosy, measles, Guinea-worm disease, Neonatal Tetanus, Lymphatic filariasis, Chagas disease, Onchocerciasis and, yes, even Polio, only to be hampered by getting the vital immunizations to third world or war torn nations. Plagues like the bubonic plague are things of the past -- all thanks to science.”
As I debate our apologist Rachel about the “Fall” in the Garden of Eden story, it WAS GOD HIMSELF who created all these harmful diseases and parasites in the first place (Rachel tried to say they were mutations after the expulsion from the Garden…a totally non-Biblical view and the idea that Total Depravity befell bacteria, viruses and parasites too; a very ludicrous explanation!!
sconner: “Hopefully you or a loved one are never in a serious car wreck, but if you were, would you want to be transported to a church, in the back of your car, so a bible could be placed over your head and oil rubbed on you or would you rather be transported by ambulance, to a hospital where science has been instrumental in saving lives, what with it's new-fangled life support machines and special chemistry to help you through the pain and surgeries -- all because of science? Come on get real!”
This is the theology behind Christian Science. That being “Animal Magnetism” causes human to get sick and, if one is Read Over with the truth, one will recover; thus the Christian Science Reading Rooms in major cities.
The last time a minor died after being read over, the parents were tried for child neglect!
Again, great work sconner!
Sconnor and Harry,
First I want to say that I thank you for overcoming your "cuss like a sailor" habitual practice when it comes to talking to Christians...as you can tell that doesn't foster dialogue with me.
Your work is noteable but overrated. Your presentation of any Muslim info only serves to prove one thing...that there are plenty of individuals in the world that believe that the continuum IS NOT closed as you and atheists hold. The very fact that there is such a large contingent of otherwise "faith observing" individuals by it's very nature cannot be downplayed as arrogant western atheists do.
Secondly looking at your list of organizations that you claim were "secular" is misleading. Many of these organizations had and have Christian roots but appeal the whole of humanity. That causes them to be considered "secular" NOT because they were not Christian based. Examples:
United Nations Children’s Fund: (governmental institution)
Created by multiple nations with this premise at heart:
“Declaration of the Rights of the Child, that "mankind owes the child the best it has to give." That is hardly the declaration that an atheist centered organization would offer especially since much of atheism is steeped in functionalism, objective rationalism and self awareness as is common in many atheist circles, and that self-awareness is often overlooked or denied in children. Atheist Dr. William Sangar is a prime example of that.
Since you wanted to talk about helping children, you failed to mention the Christian Children’s Fund – “RICHMOND, Va. - October 2, 2007 - Christian Children's Fund (CCF) has produced a Child Development Scale designed for use in developing countries. It is the first universal tool created by an international non-governmental organization that is designed to be useful regardless of the culture or circumstances in which a child lives.”
And
Feed the Children Last year, Feed The Children shipped 183 million pounds of food and other essentials to children and families in all 50 states and internationally. During its 27 year history, Feed The Children has worked in 118 countries around the globe.
There are a whole host of other Christian and religious based organization that do this and have been doing it for years. not to mention the multiple thousands of churches with missionaries and US centered outreaches such as Teen Challenge USA. in fact my church alone has approximately 21,000 US churches and operates missions and churches in over 48 countries outside of the US in mostlry poor and pverty striken neighborhoods providing education services, family services food services etc. That's just ONE organization that's not really that large.
You did mention The International Red Cross but failed to mention that it was founded by CHRISTIAN Henri Dunant. The largest humanitarian organization in the world...CHRISTIAN FOUNDED!
also
Doctors Without Boarders was born out of the French Red Cross, which was born out of the International Red Cross which was born out of Christianity
Then there's
World Health Organization but this is only a specialized agency of the United Nations (UN) that acts as a coordinating authority on international public health. This would be neutral certainly not atheist born or inspired.
Amnesty International certainly neutral deals with human rights in general which would include my religious rights
Ofxam International : Oxfam was originally founded in England in 1942 as the Oxford Committee for Famine Relief by a group of Quakers, social activists, and Oxford academics sounds like some religious and potentially religious folks to me!
The only one on the list that’s purely anti-Christian would be Population Connection and what do they want to do…CONTROL the human race…senseless!
In short, there's a long list of historical CHRISTIAN founded organizations who have EXCEEDED anything done without a Christian or religious motivation down through history.
The evidence does not bear out the altruism of man that you want to believe that is present without the intervention of God and the moral law giver. It's just not there based on sheer numbers and the cumulative human efforts.
So in short YOU and atheists like you believe in the ultimate myth that mankind will do "good things" on his own and that HAS NOT been evidenced proportionately throughout history.
So far as science and medicine, are you trying to present the case that every scientis or discoverer in the age of enlightenment was a non-theist? You would be hard pressed to present evidence to that effect. Scientific enlightenment does not clash with religion in general except when it comes to human moral issues and certain quality of life issues. So that or any argument set forth there is uncompelling.
Secondly, in addition to all the MANY empirical evidences my personal experience and the personal experiences of BILLIONS CANNOT be discounted as it pertains to religious experience, and knowing and interracting with God. It would be unscientific to throw out evidence because you don't like it's source. Unfortunately that the nature of naturalism. Unscientific. You have the luxury of accepting what you wish to consider instead of evaluating the evidence on the merits of the evidence and testimony.
Finally, when you guys figure out what a miracle is or is not, then we can have a cognitive discussion on it. Both explainatins offered in this thread leave much to be desired and I haven't even set forth a counter argument on that because you present no argument to begin with.
As I said, criticize what you're willing to define. If miracles only have an "appearance" of violating natural law and if miracles are equivalent to magic which we all agree is natural, then there's no argument and in essence you should readily agree with biblical miracles, because that's the exact Christian world-view, that miracles are not violations of natural law.
So I see there's much to be deveolped in that area.
Anyway, good job.
Thanks.
In addition, surgeons would have known how to operate on individuals successfully hundereds of years BEFORE they ultimately learned to if they had read Genesis where God puts man to sleep BEFORE removing his inner parts...also Isaiah said thousands of years ago the the shape of the earth was a circle when secularists and religious folk thought it was flat.
So even basic bible 101 offers answers that it took thousands of years for mankind to be "scientifically enlightened" to.
Later.
Secondly looking at your list of organizations that you claim were "secular" is misleading. Many of these organizations had and have Christian roots but appeal the whole of humanity. That causes them to be considered "secular" NOT because they were not Christian based. Examples
They are still secular. Your argument was The church is unparallelled by any organization secular or otherwise in helping humanity. These organizations are not the church; they are not christian organizations. They are not religious organizations.
That's like saying, The George Soros Foundation -- with programs that include the education of librarians and others to initiate democracy building and the expansion of a free press, human rights; arts and culture; and social, and economic reform -- is Jewish based, because George Soros is Jewish.
You are, truly, reaching for straws.
United Nations Children’s Fund: (governmental institution)
Created by multiple nations with this premise at heart:
“Declaration of the Rights of the Child, that "mankind owes the child the best it has to give." That is hardly the declaration that an atheist centered organization would offer especially since much of atheism is steeped in functionalism, objective rationalism and self awareness as is common in many atheist circles, and that self-awareness is often overlooked or denied in children. Atheist Dr. William Sangar is a prime example of that.
Once again, harv, you can't play by the rules and you must diverge by moving the goal posts. Atheist centered organization? Really? That's all you got?
UNICEF was created by the United Nations.
It is not a christian organization.
Still secular.
You did mention The International Red Cross but failed to mention that it was founded by CHRISTIAN Henri Dunant. The largest humanitarian organization in the world...CHRISTIAN FOUNDED!
Uh, no I didn't -- I mentioned the American Red Cross.
The American Red Cross is not a christian organization.
Still secular.
But now that you mentioned The International Red Cross, I'm sure you realize that it wasn't an organization at all -- you did know that-- right?
International Red Cross is actually a misnomer, as no official organization exists bearing that name. In reality, the Movement consists of several distinct organizations that are legally independent from each other, but are united within the Movement through common basic principles, objectives, symbols, statutes, and governing organs.
REFERENCE
Also Edward Babinski researched this particular subject and has this to say:
HOW SPECIFICALLY "CHRISTIAN" IS THE INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS?
THE INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS is now known as the RED CROSS AND RED CRESCENT
(Islamic humanitarian aid society) and together they comprise the world's largest humanitarian network of 178 (now, 186) National Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies. And let's not leave out the Indian (in the nation of India) Red Cross Society.
You can visit the official American Red Cross website and read about the origins of the International Red Cross.
"Christianity" is not mentioned once in the story of the origins of the Red Cross organization, only a reference to "Easter" being a day of truce during a bloody European war. The organization itself was founded to be international and not to distinguish amongst faiths or beliefs, nor was it founded to evangelize -- all of which makes it a rather secular humanitarian organization.
Not a christian organization.
(Not really an organization at all)
Still secular.
Oh yeah some fun facts about Jean Henri Dunant:
Although, he still professed Christian beliefs, "in his final years he spurned and attacked Calvinism and organized religion general". Paraphrased Reference
Additionally, Jean Henri Dunant was a homosexual. REFERENCE
Also using your absurd, loop-D-loop logic, why stop at Henri Dunat was a christian? I mean, Christianity was born out of Judaism and Judaism was born out of paganism -- obviously using harv's goofy reducible logic, The International Red Cross was PAGAN FOUNDED!
Bottom line is, the real organization: International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement Is not a christian organization and it is secular.
Doctors Without Boarders was born out of the French Red Cross, which was born out of the International Red Cross which was born out of Christianity
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Stretch it till it breaks harv.
Better get your facts straight, harv. Doctors Without Borders was established by a small group of doctors who were angry and discouraged with how the French Red Cross was running things. They wanted to form a new aid organization, that would ignore political/religious boundaries and prioritize the welfare of victims and then they partnered with an organization that administered disaster relief -- to form the Médecins Sans Frontières (Doctors Without Borders) in 1971.
Nothing to do with Henri Dunant.
Not born out of christianity.
Not a christian organization.
Still secular.
World Health Organization but this is only a specialized agency of the United Nations (UN) that acts as a coordinating authority on international public health. This would be neutral certainly not atheist born or inspired.
Changing the goal posts and strrrrrrreeeeeeetching, again. Remember your argument was, The church is unparallelled by any organization secular or otherwise in helping humanity.
The argument was never if it was atheist born; the argument was that the church (christianity) was unparalleled to any organization -- secular or otherwise. Claiming an organization was not an atheist organization does nothing to support your argument.
The cold hard fact of the situation is there are many non-church/non-christian organizations that do parallel and surpass what the church has done -- doesn't matter if it was founded by an atheist or not they are still secular, completely non-religious organizations that helps humanity for the sake of helping humanity.
Amnesty International certainly neutral deals with human rights in general which would include my religious rights
Yeah, if, perhaps, marauding hordes were rounding up Christians and torturing and killing them. It's not Amnesty International's job to uphold the United States Constitution and the first amendment right of Freedom of Religion. That's the ACLU job -- another secular organization. Get a grip, man.
Ofxam International : Oxfam was originally founded in England in 1942 as the Oxford Committee for Famine Relief by a group of Quakers, social activists, and Oxford academics sounds like some religious and potentially religious folks to me!
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Your facts are all squirrely, again, harv.
Oxfam International was formed in 1995 by a group of independent non-governmental organizations, who used the name Oxfam from the Oxford Committee for Famine Relief. Oxford Committee for Famine Relief changed it's name to Oxfam Great Britain and is one of the 13 organizations that is in Oxfam International.
Oxford Committee for Famine Relief did not become Oxfam International.
Not a christian organization.
Still secular.
The only one on the list that’s purely anti-Christian would be Population Connection and what do they want to do…CONTROL the human race…senseless!
Yeah, right, harv, overpopulation isn't a problem at alllllllllll. (sarcasm)
Still not a christian organization.
Still secular.
In short, there's a long list of historical CHRISTIAN founded organizations who have EXCEEDED anything done without a Christian or religious motivation down through history
Oh, now, it's religious motivation? Does that include Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Pagans etc. that do humanitarian work? So let's get this straight, they do not worship the christian god and they have a sense for helping humankind -- how does that work, exactly?
Additionally, considering Christianity, only, encompasses 30% of the world; how could christianity exceed, when the other 70% of the world is another religion or the non-religious who also have a commitment to humanity and a moral obligation to help humankind?
And which one of your christian churches or organizations has over a million volunteers with 30,000 employees which had six billion dollars in total revenue for humanitarian effort -- like the non-religious/non-christian, secular American Red Cross does?
Furthermore, The International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement, that includes Muslim, Hindu, Jewish and Buddhist,etc, with it's 97 million volunteers worldwide who protect human life and health, and ensures respect for human beings, and prevents and alleviates human suffering, without any discrimination based on nationality, race, religious beliefs, class or political opinions -- you would be hard-pressed to find any christian organization that would even come close.
International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement
Not a christian organization.
Still secular.
The evidence does not bear out the altruism of man that you want to believe that is present without the intervention of God and the moral law giver. It's just not there based on sheer numbers and the cumulative human efforts.
Well, then does the christian god dole out the magical morality dust to all the other religions, also? Where do the other religions get their sense of morality?
And how come the largest humanitarian, non-governmental, organization, in the world, (International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement) isn't christian?
So in short YOU and atheists like you believe in the ultimate myth that mankind will do "good things" on his own and that HAS NOT been evidenced proportionately throughout history.
Exactly, look at the god given morality and all the good things that were done in the name of god like, the crusades, inquisitions, slavery, genocide and witch burnings.
Men do bad things, both religious and non-religious -- this shows there is no intervention of god or that there is a magical moral law giver.
Try this on for size harv, if you found out today, that absolutely, positively, there was no god, Would you cease all humanitarian work?
~or, would you also~
Go out on a killing spree and harm children? Think about it.
So far as science and medicine, are you trying to present the case that every scientist or discoverer in the age of enlightenment was a non-theist?
You know exactly what my case was; science with all it's new fangled machines and fancy cures for some of the most heinous of diseases, far out way any superstitious remedy from your christian religion.
Your argument was -- Finally, the church and individuals in the church down through at least the last 2000 years has stood head and shoulders above any instrument of mankind and instrument of science in bringing help, hope and healing to humankind.
I argued my case with some, mighty examples of how science conquered disease like, measles, chicken pox, TB, smallpox, leprosy, measles, Guinea-worm disease, Neonatal Tetanus, Lymphatic filariasis, Chagas disease, Onchocerciasis and, Polio. And true to form, you can't argue those facts, so you have to resort to moving the goal posts by reeeeaaaaaaaching and making a faulty conclusion that asserts: well, yeah, your right sconnor, science has done a lot to help humanity but you know those scientists were also religious too.
Whoop-D-doo. Bottom line is science is head and shoulders above anything the church has done to bringing help, hope and healing to humankind. If it wasn't for science we would still be in the dark ages not knowing that excrement was getting into our drinking water and was making us sick.
Secondly, in addition to all the MANY empirical evidences my personal experience and the personal experiences of BILLIONS CANNOT be discounted as it pertains to religious experience, and knowing and interracting with God.
Then by your logic, the billions who believe in allah, through personal experiences, must not be discounted, either. Allah is real!
Also there are billions of non-religious people as well.
1. Christianity: 2.1 billion and dropping
2. Islam: 1.5 billion and growing
3. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
Argumentum ad populum -- you think it's true because many people believe it to be true.
Doesn't make it true.
Not evidence.
Appeal to personal experience
Not evidence.
And you continue to ignore one crucial tid-bit. I know you believe in the personal experiences you have -- I'm not questioning that.
What I am arguing is, you have no evidence that it was your christian god who supposedly, intervenes when you have faith in him and pray.
A devout Muslim will contend allah intervened and caused someone to be healed because of belief and praying.
An American Indian medicine man will contend that a great animal spirit healed because of ritual and prayer.
A witch doctor in Africa will contend that ritualistic magic and juju is responsible for healing.
Their personal experiences also lay claim to supposed truth.
Please supply evidence that your christian god was the one who intervened -- can you do that?
In addition, surgeons would have known how to operate on individuals successfully hundereds of years BEFORE they ultimately learned to if they had read Genesis where God puts man to sleep BEFORE removing his inner parts...
Oh my zuess, Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Holy crap, I'm submitting this to FUNDIES SAY THE DARNDEST THINGS
Yeah, isn't that where god told everyone on how to administer anesthesia, too? I wonder why god didn't mention anything about surgical techniques where the patient is fully awake for the procedure?
...also Isaiah said thousands of years ago the the shape of the earth was a circle when secularists and religious folk thought it was flat.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Ladies and gentlemen, put your hands together and give a rousing and hardy round of applause, for the comic stylings of Harvey Burnett (ROAR, ROAR, CLAPPING, CLAPING, ROAR!)
That's right harv, a circle -- not a sphere. That's because when primitive men surveyed the land from high mountains, they would slowly spin around, ignorantly concluding they were living on a piece of earth that was a flat circle.
Concluding that the bible writers knew science because they called the earth a circle is ridiculous.
Concluding that "circle" means "sphere" is like concluding "square" means "cube" -- basic elementary geometry.
Can you see where your rationalization falls apart?
Isa 40:22 -- It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in.
The ancient Hebrew word for circle is "chuwg" - it refers to a flat circle and not to sphere. Sphere would not make sense in a textual understanding for the rest of the passage - a circle is a more accurate understanding, with a the floor of tent and curtains.
More importantly, the Bible in other places refers to a ball or a sphere but uses a different Hebrew word "duwr"
--S.
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