Did God Cause This To Happen?
I am an atheist and I had no intentions of celebrating Easter Sunday. However, since I had some work around the home place to do such as trenching in a water line, I rented a trenching machine from the local equipment rental on Saturday and decide to use Easter morning to plow the water pipe in.
As it happened, I started the water line run next to my chain link gate when the digger caught a tree root throwing the digger into the fence tearing down the gate.
While I was removing the digger from the fence, a neighbor stopped by on his way home form church and told me that God does not approve of working on the Lord’s Day (especially Easter) and God jammed the digger into the fence to stop me.
I let him express his view, but told him I didn’t agree with him or Christianity and after a few short exchanges, he left. I would have told him a lot more, but, hey, he’s my neighbor. (I was only stopped long enough to remove the fence from the digger and then finished the running the water line.)
So what do you think?
It is my honest conviction that Christianity functions by correctly defining random events to re-enforce a positive supernatural functioning view of God. (I’m convinced my neighbor saw an opportunity to re-enforce his view of God when he came upon me this Easter Sunday.)
Thus, if an event is interpreted correctly, it builds up or re-enforces a believers view that God is in control and does indeed functions in the world. However, if a wrong interpretation is applied to an event, it hurts the faith of the believer. To many of these bad or poor interpretations can be detrimental to one’s Christian faith(Thus the main function of the Sunday morning sermon).
I find most Christian believers have a spiritual tool box full of just the right interpretations to keep God on his throne and in a positive spotlight. Some of which are:
A. God knows the total picture.
B. God lets things happen to teach people a lesson.
C. God is in control, but wants us to use our Free Will.
D. Or, if all else fails: Satan causes things to hurt people in his war against God.
As it happened, I started the water line run next to my chain link gate when the digger caught a tree root throwing the digger into the fence tearing down the gate.
While I was removing the digger from the fence, a neighbor stopped by on his way home form church and told me that God does not approve of working on the Lord’s Day (especially Easter) and God jammed the digger into the fence to stop me.
I let him express his view, but told him I didn’t agree with him or Christianity and after a few short exchanges, he left. I would have told him a lot more, but, hey, he’s my neighbor. (I was only stopped long enough to remove the fence from the digger and then finished the running the water line.)
So what do you think?
It is my honest conviction that Christianity functions by correctly defining random events to re-enforce a positive supernatural functioning view of God. (I’m convinced my neighbor saw an opportunity to re-enforce his view of God when he came upon me this Easter Sunday.)
Thus, if an event is interpreted correctly, it builds up or re-enforces a believers view that God is in control and does indeed functions in the world. However, if a wrong interpretation is applied to an event, it hurts the faith of the believer. To many of these bad or poor interpretations can be detrimental to one’s Christian faith(Thus the main function of the Sunday morning sermon).
I find most Christian believers have a spiritual tool box full of just the right interpretations to keep God on his throne and in a positive spotlight. Some of which are:
A. God knows the total picture.
B. God lets things happen to teach people a lesson.
C. God is in control, but wants us to use our Free Will.
D. Or, if all else fails: Satan causes things to hurt people in his war against God.
33 comments:
"It is my honest conviction that Christianity functions by correctly defining random events to re-enforce a positive supernatural functioning view of God."
I am not sure why you use "correctly". As an atheist, do you not mean "incorrectly"? Perhaps the sentence would work better if the word were left out. Or have I missed the point? Otherwise, I agree. But this blinkered viewpoint of which you write is not a strictly christian attitude as it happens in all belief systems.
How are the American proddy evangelicans dealing with the recent Italian earthquake? Is it seen by them as a condemnation by God of all things Roman and idolatrous? If so, why didn't He hit the Vatican rather than some outlying churches? He does move in mysterious ways, that's for sure.
I think it's actually unbiblical to run around proclaiming this and that as punishment or reward (Book of Job anyone? I know the ending can seem like a total copout, but it also makes it pretty clear that Jews and by extension Christians aren't supposed to run around doing what that man did). The Christian and/or decent human being thing to do in my opinion would probably have been to offer to help you out with the mess. stuff happens, bad and good; I think Christianity when applied for good is perhaps better at dealing with things than at explaining them.
Harry, this is also why God burned all those houses at the Christian center in New Hampshire. He was upset at the rich believers having summer homes.
Your neighbor is wrong. Working on Sunday used to be considered blasphemy before Jesus came to earth to die for our sins. Once Jesus came we never had to obey these silly rules in order to have eternal salvation. Jesus himself worked on the sabbath and even told other people to work on the sabbath. The bible also says never to shave your beard or get tattoos, but I'm positively sure that your neighbor shaves his beard and maybe even has some tats.
God could have total control of every single event that has ever happened in your life ever if he wanted. The thing is, he created us in his image. God builds things. What animal builds structures as complex as we do? None. What animal has extensive feelings of love, guilt, sadness, etc. None. God does whatever the heck he wants and so do we and whatever happens, happens. When we are living in Christ and are constantly seeking guidance from God, that is when God is in control of our life. God isn't some genie in a bottle. He doesn't protect you from every earthly harm that could ever happen. Has he ever protected people from harm before? Yes, more times than we'll ever know. Is he there hold our hand and protecting us from misfortune our entire life? Not at all.
Since we are created in God's image, we have free will and do whatever the heck we want. Was your gate torn down because you were working on a Sunday? No, your gate was torn down because you hit a root while you were digging a trench.
How can your neighbor say it is punishment? If he truly believes in his god, couldn't that root and gate been there just so your digger could get hung in them to save your life. I know that is stretching it but who can say what actions lead to being harmed or not harmed. I have heard people say that if they hadn't forgotten this or that they could have been involved in some accident on the highways that did happen.
ObeyHisWord said: "Working on Sunday used to be considered blasphemy before Jesus came to earth to die for our sins."
Nope, working on Saturdays was forbidden before Jesus "came to earth."
Harry, I don't think it is recalcitrant facts that turn believers away, I think it is a loss of faith in the presence of God. Experience counts for more than either side here gives credit.
I do think that some believers, though, try to generate this feeling through over-spiritualization and re-casting of events.
ObeyHisWords said: Working on Sunday used to be considered blasphemy before Jesus came to earth to die for our sins. Once Jesus came we never had to obey these silly rules in order to have eternal salvation.
So many wrong statements in so few words... wow.
First, the Sabbath is from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset, holding to the Genesis 1 accounting of a day as being "evening and morning." (Incidentally, how does the creationist reconcile Gen 1:4 with Gen 1:16?)
Working on the Sabbath was not considered "blasphemy." It was an offense punishable by stoning, as were many things. (I can only assume here that jute rope was hard to come by in Mesopotamia.)
Nonetheless, it never ceases to amaze me when fundies get all up in your face about breaking God's law and then they lump in Sabbath observance with the other "silly rules" that went away when Jesus was here.
So should we call them the "Nine Commandments" now? Or can we substitute one of the commandments from the other lists? Funny thing, though, that silly Sabbath commandment appears on those other lists too (See. Ex 20:7-10; Ex 34:21; Deut 5:11-14). It appears it was so important to God that He had Moses write it down THREE times, unlike some of the other "commandments."
I know, some people interpret Mark 2:27 to mean the Sabbath commandment is now null and void (while conveniently overlooking the contradiction between Mark 2:25-26 and 1Sam21:1). I'm not sure how they arrive at that conclusion simply from the disciples grabbing a bite to eat straight from the plant. If anything it was a commentary on how hyperbolically the pharisees were defining "work" in relation to sabbath keeping. But that in no way does away with the entirety of the Sabbath commandment.
I think your example of confirmation bias as a foundation of Christian belief is an apt one, particularly in the way it uses a (relatively) mundane example without the emotional baggage of something more significant in our lives. Well, at least without the emotional baggage for the rest of us -- it appears you made a pretty good job of that fence! And it is the ongoing use of that Christian toolbox which then comprises the religion, sorting each event into its appropriate theological box. Nice post.
Samphire, I used the word "correctly" in a subjective context for Christian interpretation to be able to support their belief system and for them to keep God alive.
This use of "correctly" is NOT used objectivly in this context.
ObeyHisWord:
We still have Blue Laws on the legal books in S.C.
While the state is getting rid of most of them, the conservative churches have taken a strong stand protesting their non-enforcement.
Baconsbud,
I thought about this too. But then I was not sure if this action was of God or of Satan.
Maybe the root was put there by Satan and the brains God gave me were not up to par!
Brad Haggard,
I think some Christians don't engage their brains before opening their mouths i their attempt to prove God.
Pat Robertson and the late Jerry Falwell were good at this when at first discussing AIDS in the U.S and 9/11.
Ok I was making fun of your neighbors views but what they call a miracle could just as easily be a curse. I think they never really look to deeply into what they say or claim. From peoples view every action has both good and bad reactions. Most of them we never see or hear about. How can I be sure that this post here doesn't cause someone to laugh at me so hard he has a heart attack. Then again it could also lead to saving someones life because it delays them by 15 seconds. I think that is the biggest problem with so called miracles or punishment. It all depends on how you want to look at them.
Baconsbud,
I think it amounts to the old: Is the glass half empty or half full?
When is God not acting like Satan and why does Satan dwell only in an area dealing with pain and suffering and still rivals God who is suppose to give out only love and justice?
As I’ve stated in an earlier post here at DC:
As a Christian, you are now following a supreme God who created the universe. The following are some of the main superlative facts you need to know about God (Yahweh):
He is omnipotent (Having unlimited power and authority).
He is omnipresent (He is present everywhere).
He is omniscient (Having total knowledge).
He commands billions of angels of which just one could destroy the world.
As a Christian, you are part of large and diverse group totaling over 2.1 billion members that has a worldwide yearly budget approaching one half of a trillion dollars.
HOWEVER
You now know Satan (a fallen angel) is your only and main adversary who leads a small rag-tag army of other fallen angles (demons).
Satan has very limited power (Just what little power and control God gives him).
Satan has no earthly members. (Just a few “Dabblers”).
Satan has no budget.
AND YET
According to God’s own word the Bible (especially the Book of Revelation) God, with all the above supreme attributes, is losing a battle He created and even sacrificed His only begotten son to win.
You, as a Christian, will one day stand before your God at the Great White Throne Judgment and be asked to “give an account” of why you, as a mortally limited and sinful human, screwed up. From there, most of your members will be given total blame for the lost of creation and along with unforgiven sinners you will be cast into The Lake of Fire to be burned and tormented forever.
Who can understand the LOVE of God?
The explanation is simple, the Flying Spaghetti Monster did it. He wants you out at sea, as a pirate, showing the world how great pirates really are, and thus bringing the FSM more glory!
Harry, um I agree again?
But Robertson and Falwell are looking for "traffic" as well in their comments.
Harry, you are not alone. God also took time out of his busy schedule to teach me a lesson as well. Saturday night at my pub I was joking with some atheist friends about attending church on Easter. Later that night (Sunday by then) I got the "flashing blue lights" and had to pull over into a church parking lot. So, technically I went to church on Easter Sunday. The officer was fishing for drunk drivers so I had no problem since I had not been drinking. However, my wife and I had the opportunity to have a nice chat with the young lady officer who we knew (and hadn't seen in years). So, maybe that was the reason God had me pulled over.
Harry wrote:
I find most Christian believers have a spiritual tool box full of just the right interpretations to keep God on his throne and in a positive spotlight.In this case, your neighbor appears to be justifying and reinforcing his belief in God by assuming he has an advantage which you do not. "I wouldn't have worked on Sunday because I know God would punish me for it. You disregarded this precept and this was the consequences." Apparently, he thought you were oblivious to this "fact", and was more than glad to "enlighten" you.
However, I think God is primarily designed to help make sense out of the believer's experiences and the world around them. Had this happened to you on Saturday, God would "saved" you by causing the digger to be thrown away from you (into the fence), instead of being thrown at you.
Many Christians say things like... "The world doesn't make sense without God."
For the sake of argument, let's assume that some kind of God does exist. End of story? Of course not.
Merely saying that God exists isn't enough as God can't help them make sense out of the world unless they know the specific reasons behind his actions. It's only when we assume that God has specific rules or desires, such as prohibiting work on Sundays, that he provides an explanation to why his neighbor's digger hit a fence.
Regardless of how unlikely it would be that our conclusions would be accurate, theists need to define God's nature and motivations in detail and in relation to their situation. Otherwise, God's existence doesn't actually "make sense" of the specific experiences they have.
You forgot my belief:
(e) God really doesn't worry himself about whether or not your digger rips apart your fence, or whether or not the Union wins or the Confederates win (both sides prayed for victory), or whether or not the Chargers get to the Super Bowl this year--what He cares about is His believers' relationship to Him. The physical result is immaterial--the spiritual result is what matters.
That said, your neighbor, I think, was wrong to say that God was punishing you. Your neighbor doesn't know what God was thinking--and saying so is (in my belief) wrong in that that is what "taking the Lord's name in vain" REALLY means. If God decided to make your digger run into the fence in order to reinforce your neighbor's belief, then that's between your neighbor and God... not between you and your neighbor.
I believe in God partially because it is far easier to say "God made it that way" as an explanation of things that Science doesn't understand (such as the nature of Reality, the placebo effect, etc.) rather than constantly making up new, practically untestable theories like multiverses and parallel time.
But I completely respect that you choose a different explanation of what happens when you die.
Peace.
You forgot my belief:
(e) God really doesn't worry himself about whether or not your digger rips apart your fence, or whether or not the Union wins or the Confederates win (both sides prayed for victory), or whether or not the Chargers get to the Super Bowl this year--what He cares about is His believers' relationship to Him. The physical result is immaterial--the spiritual result is what matters.
That said, your neighbor, I think, was wrong to say that God was punishing you. Your neighbor doesn't know what God was thinking--and saying so is (in my belief) wrong in that that is what "taking the Lord's name in vain" REALLY means. If God decided to make your digger run into the fence in order to reinforce your neighbor's belief, then that's between your neighbor and God... not between you and your neighbor.
I believe in God partially because it is far easier to say "God made it that way" as an explanation of things that Science doesn't understand (such as the nature of Reality, the placebo effect, etc.) rather than constantly making up new, practically untestable theories like multiverses, parallel time and undetectable endocrine excretions.
But I completely respect that you choose a different explanation of what happens to "you" after you die.
Peace.
I think the original day of Sunday got lost after the change from the Julian calendar to the current Gregorian calendar or which ever calendar we are currently using.
When they divided the calendar up from every month having exactly 30 days to make up for the 12\365.4 days
Anyways, the original day called Sunday got shifted, now no one knows the exact day Sunday is on or any other day either for that matter.
Maybe some of you scholars can clear me up on this, I would appreciate it, if someone would.
I'm not sure where this idea started around Shabbat being on Sunday because of a calendar change. The jews have been celebrating Shabbat for thousands of years. You should consult them on the history of Shabbat and whether or not the day ever changed.
Most Christians get their warrant for celebrating on Sunday (and only half-heartedly at that) from a couple of passages in the New Testament. First are the prohibited activities Jesus and his disciples were said to have engaged in during Shabbat. A passage from Colossians that references these events and give warrant for doing away with the Jewish customs involving food and sabbath keeping. The second is from the savior having arisen on the third day, Sunday, which becomes a day to celebrate the lord.
Colossians itself is of dubious origin. Although Colossians 1:1 purports to have been written by Paul, I don't believe many NT scholars hold that view.
Its Just plain ignorance Harry.
Some Christians personally refuse medication for their children .If the child dies supposedly its also gods will too.
Here’s my point about what is called “God”:
Are we dealing with an actual reality, or are we toying around with a logical explanation that fits a per-conceived idea much like seeing clouds in the sky making pictures?
In other words, the theistic or “God” concept is there only to benefit our explanation of what we want reality to be. One wants God in this event simply because one has a strong will to believe or God controls the events around us just as the right planetary orders in astrology can also be credited in controlling the events around us. Or, put another way, our grandchild is the best grandchild in the world because we want it to be the best grandchild in the world for our belief system’s sake regardless of the actual facts.Thus, we don’t need to prove God with the opening of a typical door since we expect a door to open without any” “God” involvement.
But when a real need is created, such as when a door on a sinking ship won’t open, then we look for help anywhere we can find it; be it another person else to help with the stuck door, or, if we are alone, the created entity called “God”.
In this case, our brain is comforted in a last ditch effort to survive. As such, this (or any other random event) is used to “prove God” totally apart from the fact that the event is of common occurrence, but the event was used to support a per-conceived idea. As such, God is there when one needs and this explanation to fits the need.
Thus, if one has the will to believe, one is always looking for reason to keep a belief system alive which has nothing to do with the fact that anything was ever done coming from what one labels “God” in the first place.
As such, folk remedies have just as much legitimate value as an explanation as does what is labeled as either “God” or astrology!
In the end, it’s our subjectivity that makes us happy.
Wow Harry that blew me away..thanks!
Perhaps a god or a super hero is what we need only when we need it/him/she, but since we cannot call up this god and expect a miracle to happen, we look for why did not this perceived god show up, oh it was our fault in the first place...not enough faith...so this god only shows up when you have enough faith...which no one can seem to ever muster up enough faith to begin with.
So god and faith go hand in hand, one cannot appear without the other so that's why we need a savior to save us from not having enough faith...lol
And this, Holy Prophet Steven Bently, is the human dilemma; it is truly our Catch 22 curse.
Of all the animals in creation, humans are the only species that have the brains to invent religion and then blame itself when the illusion does not work.
He cares about is His believers' relationship to Him. The physical result is immaterial--the spiritual result is what matters.I don't see how you can say a relationship doesn't have a physical component as we are physical beings. If God exists, his physical presence (or lack there off) would has an impact on our relationship.
For example, If you have a wife or significant other, is your relationship not effected by physical events and proximity between each of you? If you have a child, would your relationship not be different if you never met face to face?
If God were to appear to you, would this not result in a different relationship than what you think you have now?
Since God supposedly gave us physical bodies and created a physical universe, he would be well aware of the impact of such a choice. In fact, why would God intentionally created beings with physical bodies yet think the material is not important?
I don't see how you can say a relationship doesn't have a physical component as we are physical beings. If God exists, his physical presence (or lack there off) would has an impact on our relationship. The spiritual relationship of course has some basis on what physically happens to you in this world. But before we get into that.. consider that, according to the Bible, your "soul" is an eternal thing. Eternity is a really long time, right? So, just how important do you really think the 120 or so years you're going to spend on this Earth really is?
The real question, then, is that given this short stay on earth... why in heck did God bother putting us here?
The answer, if you believe the bible, then can be found in Mal 3:3 that compares God to a forge and "the sons of Levi" as metal... Or Isa 29:16 and 64:8 that compares God as the potter and us as the clay (and presumably life as the wheel). Even in the new testament there are lots of references to the UNIMPORTANCE of physical things: "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his whole soul?"
So yes, things happen in the world--but I think that a true Christian should see what ever happens as the shaping of HIS soul... not others'. So for, example, this guy's neighbor, upon seeing the digger overturned, should have stopped to help--not JUDGE. Helping--being a light--would've been, I think, what the refiner would've wanted to see the metal do; what the potter would've wanted to see the clay do. Not judging (Romans 14).
How "christians" think that they have the only truth to salvation--and then, using that to condemn honest, hardworking people is why I tend to dislike most "christians."
Just get him a list of kids who died Easter Sunday and ask him what they done to piss God off.
Eternity is a really long time, right? So, just how important do you really think the 120 or so years you're going to spend on this Earth really is?Extremely important, if Christianity is wrong.
Extremely important, if Christianity is wrong.
---
I interpret your comment to mean, instead, "Extremely important, if there is no God..." since my argument of 120 years vice eternity is religion-neutral; it applies to Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, agnosticism--even some forms of atheism.
For atheists, I think, the 120 years should be more meaningless: various forms of atheism contend that the "lights go out" upon death; in which case there is no way to feel regret or elation for their life conduct in those 120 years. I suppose one could argue that one's life has an effect on "future generations" (and therefore a life well spent gives the atheist some modicum of reward now)--but even that may be contentious depending on the definition of what reality is.
For example, one of quantum theories being bandied about as part of an interpretation of quantum mechanics is the "Many Minds" interpretation. This is a spin-off of Hugh Everett's (sp?) "Many Worlds" interpretation: the probabalistic world that is "chosen" is entirely dependent on the consciousness observing that instant of the worlds. The issue for atheists, then, is that if one dies, the universe of that observer essentially dissolves into its constituent probabilities hence those 120 years have absolutely no effect on the universe. (Yeah, yeah, there are lots of papers debunking the idea of Many Minds and Many Worlds... don't you love science? Kill trees to publish theories and rebuttals that results in people being just as confused as before).
So I suppose that with this in mind, the ripped up fence is completely meaningless to a true Atheist and so should be completely ignored.
Or maybe god did this just to give your neighbor a chance to either:
a) chastise you and forever prove they are an a-hole, or
b) stop and ask if you might need some help.
I'd say he failed his god's test.
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