Conservative Bibliobloggers Attack Again. Why? No, Really? Why?

Jeremy, who is apparently taking over the Biblioblogger rankings list, had asked recently how to decide who should make the list of BiblioBlogs. Since he asked, I responded in the comments section as follows:
I think the content should be about the Bible, not political commentary, nor philosophical musings. I think the blog owner should have at least a college degree in a Bible related field too. High School educated bloggers need not apply. I would further argue it should be limited to bloggers who have an accredited master’s degree too, since this should be a list of the finest bloggers. I think the list should include team blogs. I don’t see why not. However, websites that don’t allow comments should be disallowed.

This should be the basis for discussion. The list is way too long too. I would also argue that unless a blog breaks into to top 200 it should not even be on the list, nor those blogs that have no data for them. After all this is a list of rankings, so if there is no data on a blog i[t] has no rank.
Now, no one can claim I want to exclude some on the blogger list so that I may overtake first place, because if team blogs were allowed I would definitely not be ranked in the top 5, or so I'm told. I was just thinking what a great list of Bibliobloggers would look like, irrespective of my own personal ranking. Judge for yourselves if you think I did this, but that was my goal. I thought to myself, if we started over what would a good one look like, kinda like asking from behind the Rawlsian veil of ignorance. Now I know we can't start over, but this is still what I think, and I have a right to comment since I am a Biblioblogger.

Then without so much as giving a reason why he disagreed Polycarp, who now ranks in first place, responded by saying:
I think John Loftus should take a flying leap.
After asking him to say why he disagreed he responded in the same fashion, to which I wrote:
Listen Joel, I was asked my opinion and I gave it. What exactly is wrong with that? No, really. I want to know. And while you’re throwing ad hominems around why not at least offer a few reasons why you disagree? Sheesh.
You see, this is one of the reasons why I think the standards for who is a biblioblogger should be raised, so that we have educated, intelligent disagreements. Polycarp just proved my point in his response to me.

Then Polycarp wrote a post slamming me titled: Only Know It Alls Need Apply. Notice the title? Who or what is a "know it all"? I'm certainly not. Never claimed to be, either. I never hinted at such a thing when I offered a comment about who should be a Biblioblogger. Where does that come from? Again, this only proves my point. In this post Polycarp lists many people who did not have a college education who made a difference in the world (I didn't verify most of the names on that list though). And so the context for what follows is this one, to which I responded to Polycarp in these words:
Listen, for every uneducated person who made a big difference in the world there are millions who didn’t. The odds are against it. Such things as these should be judged on a case by case basis. The rule is that, given the easy access to a college education in our part of the world today, anyone who really wanted to learn could do so. If a person doesn’t go to college to learn then that person probably doesn’t have much of a desire to learn. And given the dumbing down of American education, even a college education doesn’t mean as much as it once did. Now most everyone is getting one. Those are the odds. Quite frankly I have not been impressed with any blogger who did not at least have a college education. Maybe you could point us to one or two or however many you wish to endorse, so I might see for myself.
Okay so far?

Now Jeremy takes up Polycarp’s cause and attempts to tear into me. Remember, he's the one taking over the task of ranking the Bibliobloggers. His claim is that what I wrote last is

blatantly inaccurate

implicitly problematic with regard to race

implicitly problematic with regard to social class


My claim is that if people don’t understand the problem, or if they cannot understand what is being said, then they cannot adequately respond to it. My claim is that until Christians can exhibit a better exegesis of something written by a person in today's world then they can have little confidence to be able to exegete a biblical passage coming from the ancient world. My claim is that with thinking skills exhibited here with Polycarp and Jeremy it’s no wonder they believe.

You see, scholars have a better ability to know what is being said than others. They can see little differences in word choices that others don’t see so well. And they understand that the context of a statement or a paragraph is, well, pretty much most everything. They also know that a person cannot write everything he or she knows, especially in a short paragraph or two. That's why they must apply the principle of charity to what is written, and that's also why the context is so important.

I had said, “The rule is that, given the easy access to a college education in our part of the world today, anyone who really wanted to learn could do so.” Context. Context. Context. This statement does not deny there are people who want to learn but cannot do so, at all. The presumption I was working with was any Blogger who wanted to learn could do so if he or she wanted to, since we were talking about what should constitute the qualifications of someone on the Biblioblogger list. Nonetheless, while there are indeed more serious obstacles to getting an education for some people than others, if people really wanted to go to college they could probably do so (yes, I used the word "probably"), even if for some people they would have to want it more than others.

And while I said “Most everyone is getting an education," again the context demands that I meant most everyone who wants to learn is getting an education. I never used the word “only” as in Jeremy’s rhetorical statement: “The only thing that affects a person getting a degree is really wanting to learn?” Where did Jeremy come up with that? Is this how he interprets the Bible, by inserting words that are not there?

As I said, there are people who are Biblioblogger’s who simply hate the fact that I am one, and that I rank so highly. The best explanation for this seems to me that I am a debunker. They could prove me wrong by engaging me and not personally attacking me, but that's up to them. That’s too bad, really, for they should have no fear of me if they are correct. I should easily be argued against by the conservatives on that list. The liberals and radicals don’t even bother with this at all.

I want to get along. I really do. I initially considered it an honor to be on the list in the first place. But I must insist on being treated like an educated human being with the respect it demands.

24 comments:

J. L. Watts said...

Now, John, shouldn't you really tell your reader's the truth about where it started? Start there, next time.

And regarding Team Blogs, why told you that?

Other wise, when you act like a person who is educated, I'll treat you as one. I have no problems treating those with degrees or expertise in an area with the respect that they deserve; however, it does appear that all you seek is validation for yourself.

Personally, once you get over yourself, I would love to be able to talk about things with you. I am sure that you have insights which may be useful to me.

Anonymous said...

More personal attacks, eh, Joel? How is it that you know me better than I know myself? I'm merely insisting on being treated like an educated human being with the respect it demands. I still don't see you doing that.

I mean, really, why attack me simply because I responded to a question with my opinion? I can have opinions last time I checked, that is if I'm to be regarded as a human being. Or don't ask next time, right?

Care to explain YOUR motivations?

[I don't have the time right now about the team blogs, but I assure you it was recently said, maybe by NT Wrong, in the same post where The Jesus Creed was mentioned as not being allowed on the Biblioblogger list].

J. L. Watts said...

You view everything as an attack, John. It's not.

Um...haven't seen the thing about Team Blogs, but Jesus Creed and BW3 can't be ranked because of BeliefNet. Alexa cannot pick them up. Maybe they are associating Team Blogs with Beliefnet.

The education thing, btw, is not about the list. You seem to have a rather elitist view about education, and I think that Jeremy pointed out the logical fallacy of your arguments.

As for me and your insistence that people are upset that you are on the list - I could care less if unbelievers are on the list or not. Personally, since everyone else is wrong but me...

Anonymous said...

As far as where this all started goes, do you want me to start with when I was born? ;-)

I don't think it's necessary to begin with the fact that Jim West did what you are now doing to me in a less forthright manner, but if you'd like to go there then I had previously objected to similar treatment from him, yes.

Anonymous said...

I am personally attacked quite a bit on the web Joel, yes, even by you when you claimed I was not a true Biblioblogger. Christians do this just because I disagree.

So now you claim neither you nor Jeremy are attacking me?

Okay, I guess.

What then is the difference between reasoning with me and what I just highlighted in this post?

I'm curious, you see.

J. L. Watts said...

That's not really the beginning I was talking about John, but sure, tell me about your childhood.

No, John, Jim devalued you based on your atheism. I don't do that. I simply don't care for you method of attacks. Your atheism is your believe system, and indeed, in our rather democratic society, you have that choice. I would object to anyone back on that method - believers, non-believers and even Vulcans.

Anonymous said...

Joel, we obviously see things differently. There are many Christians who think I am personally attacking them merely because I reason against them. Perhaps you can share an example of a personal attack in this post of mine? I'm reasoning, not attacking. I'm defending myself from attacks.

Again, what then is the difference between reasoning with me and what I just highlighted in this post?

Tell ya what, just clean up your language and we'll probably be okay:

J.I. Watts said: You view everything as an attack, John.

Everything? Joel is once again proving my point. Anyone who reasonably engages me knows this is not the case at all.

J. L. Watts said...

John, as we noted before, the 'you not being a biblioblogger bit' was tongue in cheek.

I think that calling you out for being wrong is not an attack; you might feel it that way. Granted, however, there could be better ways of offering disagreements, and I will admit I could work on that.

Further, Jeremy is not attacking you. Again, you seem to thing when someone says you wrong, it is an attack. Jeremy was cordial, polite, and only showed where you were wrong. Again, not an attack. When you see everything as an attack, or you devalue others because of something of themselves, then there is no reasoning with you.

You do see the correlation between people devaluing you because you are an atheist and you devaluing others because of a lack of a degree, right?

I'm going to run some errands, John, so I might not respond for a while, but you have my email address regardless.

Jeremy said...

John,
Whatever discussion happens between you and Joel, frankly I don't care all that much. As for me and my post:

1. Conservative BiblioBlogger - Nope. Middle (if anything middle-left) Catholic with fairly liberal political views. I can assure you this is the first time in a long time I've been called conservative.

2. My post was only ancillary to the BiblioBlog list. If you would like to know my thoughts about the list: I would like to see a main list cross listed by academic area, academic qualification, etc. (a bit like Technorati, but more tongue in cheek). That way the list is inclusive, but people know a bit more about the particular bloggers they are clicking through to read.

3. You do not use the word only, but you use the words "anyone" and "most everyone."

4. I think most central, when I read with regard to a college education "Now most everyone is getting one" I am absolutely flabbergasted, considering how often I hear how lamentably behind America is in having people get a college education, especially minorities and lower class. I don't think the context you add here in your post changes your meaning all that much.

My post was primarily about your comments on education, which I think are way off.

Anonymous said...

Jeremy, I like your suggestion #2.

Cheers.

Anonymous said...

And Jeremy, you never told us what your educational level is. If you do what you suggested in #2 then we'll know soon enough, so why not here?

Joshua Jung said...

Oh the irony, when Christians reveal their regenerated colors are still as soiled as their supposedly still degenerate neighbor.

Only nice thing about this is it makes me glad I didn't continue my road into apologetics and have to hang out with people like that.

Go get 'em John, they're just annoyed.

goprairie said...

You were asked to set standards. Standards play to generalities.
Standards want to be simple statements, so they MUST generalize. It is possible for non-college educated person to know the Bible and to know the standards of and process for rational logical thought, but is is much less LIKELY. So you set a standard based on liklihood.
In my experience, the general public of Christians think they are well-read on the Bible and know a great deal about it, but in reality they know little. They have studied the same safe predictable well-known soft parts in Bible studies for years and if they ever engaged in any sort of reading of the thing from cover to cover, they glossed past the troubling parts and passed them off as ancient writings no longer useful, but then when they need to justify some unsovory thought or action, they let those parts be used out of context for bad purposes. A person educated in the provenance and history of the Bible KNOWS the context, or should, and at least can be held somewhat accountable for that. A person not educated in the Bible but COLLEGE educated knows the process of thinking and analysing demands that you look not at the isolated verse but the context and the larger piece within which it fits. They may not know Bible specifics, but they know how to find them and that they need to in order to form arguments, because in college, they at least learned to read the WHOLE article and the WHOLE paper and listen to the WHOLE lecture before grabbing onto one line or thought out of context.
Yeah, I have friends and associates who are not college educated and are still experts, but it is because they are SELF-educated. If they had not pursued ideas and thinking outside of college on their own, they would not have achieved what they have. They are the exception, not the rule, so if putting together a panel of experts on something, it is reasonable to make college educated a standard. Even if it excludes the rare exceptions.

Tristan Vick said...

Dudes, come on. It's a blog.

A freakin' web journal for crying out loud.

You want to be taken seriously, any of you? Publish another book. That would be a start.

This medium, the digital one, is still to fresh to gain the merit of a published tome, preferably by an accredited publisher or university press.

And as nice as it would be to get respect online, I rarely ever see it.

Nettequette just doesn't seem to be in the vocabulary of those who want to prove themselves superior to the rest.

So you can have your peacock battle of words, defend your reputation until your blue in the face, or just let bygones be bygones.

Unless any real damage is occurring because someone wouldn't put you on a list, then I don't see what all the fuss is about.

I write just as much as John, and I consider myself pretty unimportant. And I don't mean to diminish what John has accomplished, because he had a goal in mind, I don't.

But I must say, there needs to be a better, perhaps more important issue to discuss, than say, who called who a name? Seriously boys.

Granted, if I didn't really have an interest I wouldn't even bother reading. But I am an advocate for reason after all. And to me, the reasonable thing would be to respect others opinions, and defend yours the best you can while expecting others to respectfully disagree. We can always agree to disagree, right?

Jeremy said...

John,

If you must know, I am a doctoral student in the last stages of writing my dissertation. But, I do not take for granted for one moment that had I been raised about one block over from where I grew up, I would be far less likely to have the education I have today. And, if I had not had the parents that I had, it would be equally as unlikely. In fact, I am where I am in some degree despite myself.

And, if you like my suggestion in #2, I don't think it will be necessary for you and I to mention the list to one another ever again. I will be moving to that shortly. I think it is a much more balanced approach.

Anonymous said...

You see, scholars have a better ability to know what is being said than others.

Well, that's an overstatement.

At the most, that might be true for your particular area of expertise. If one did a dissertation in the Psalms, for example, I would expect that such a statement would be true if it were qualified with something like:

Scholar X, who successfully completed a dissertation on the Psalms, have a trained eye with respect to ANE poetry; therefore, Scholar X is better equipped to understand what is being said in this particular person than someone who does not have that training.

Maybe that's what you are saying, and you just wrote it in a hurry. I'm not sure. But either way, it's an enormous reach.

As to your comments on education (my observations from a lurker in this debate): John, just admit that your statement was inaccurate as you phrased it. It may or may not be what you intended to say; I don't know your intent. But I read your comment as it was constructed exactly as Jeremy did. It reeks of elitism, and it reeks of sociological privilege (something you and I both share).

Education is hard to get, especially if one is night white and male with financial resources.

Further, education does not guarantee insight. You are undoubtedly well-equipped to do exegesis because of your training. I'm less equipped but still competent. But that doesn't mean for a second that a completely untrained person could take any text -- religious, sacred, secular -- and uncover a nuanced meaning that the most perceptive scholar could not find.

Look, regardless of your intention, your comment came across a certain way. Just accept that it did, admit that it did, and try to make the point that you were trying to make clear.

Anonymous said...

Sorry for the spelling and grammatical errors above ... typed in a huge hurry.

Rob R said...

From what little I've read on this, John Loftus makes more sense here.

Taking education level into account does certainly does serve to indicate what quality may be expected of a blog, better than gaging internet behavior. So if we can take a shallow measure of blog quality such as clicking behavior and add a significant amount of substance to it such as education, it seems to me that the gain of that substantive measure would outweigh the loss. And what is the loss? Some good quality blogging may be passed over, but it's not as if the current system is any better in that respect. Popularity or clicking behavior can obscure good quality blogs by lesser educated individuals as much as anything else, and if ranking serves to increase traffic for some blogs, you may just be feeding the popularity of sites where poor quality of thought is promoted.

And what of those quality blogs that miss out. They'll just have to find readers in other ways. It's just silly to expect such a shallow measure to enable good thinking bloggers to get ahead. And I don't know why Christians would think otherwise when scripture gives us reason to be wary of popularity.

It also seems to me that another solution is to have more than one list, one that is just the alexa rankings, one that could take into account education level, one just for Christians and so on. For that matter, it is insular to think that only Christian blogs are worth considering. While I hold that atheists and skeptics are destined to get scripture wrong, it's fruitless to think that their end of the conversation should be ignored or that they would never make any substantive claims that deserve attention. our call to witness to unbelievers certainly does demand that we listen to them as well.

But ultimately, again, this is all very shallow.

On the education matter, I recall Ben Witherington wrote that he had a discussion with a fella who said he didn't need to study all the background information because when he preached, the Holy Spirit guided him. Witherington immediately told him "well its too bad you didn't give the Holy Spirit more to work with!"

J. L. Watts said...

I agree with John on number 2, which is odd, and most likely means the Saints will win the Superbowl.

Madeleine said...

As one of the team members of your biggest competition on the Biblioblog list John I dispute your claim that team blogs are not allowed - what is my blog?

Anonymous said...

Madeline, teams member blogs are not allowed. That is not my rule. I actually argue that they should be. Perhaps they just haven't realized that yours is a team blog.

So now I must insist on them being consistent. Either remove MandM from the list or allow team blogs.

J. L. Watts said...

John, do you take a fundamentalist approach to all things? First, NT Wrong was handling the first incarnation, but based on progressive revelation, Jeremy has volunteered to do it. Even when Wrong had it, there were team blogs on the list, I believe.

I personally have no problem with team blogs and believe that they should be allowed to be on the list, but as Jeremy is compiling it, it seems to be up to him.

Anonymous said...

Joel, a Saints fan? Well, I do think the best team deserves to be in the Superbowl playing against the Colts, so why not? We agree on that one too, but not on who should win.

And thanks Rob R., for trying to be objective here. I know we don't see eye to eye but it's always refreshing when an opponent of mine can cross the line and agree with me.

None of this matters though in the end. It's just what we Bloggers do to pass the time of day. What else would we blog about, right?

J. L. Watts said...

Now, John, don't misquote me. I never said that I was a Saints fan. I simply implied that with us agreeing, they have a better chance of winning, if you know what I mean.