More From Dr. Peoples and Annihilationism

Glenn Peoples rejects an eternal hell in favor of extinction or annihilationism, which I wrote about previously. Glenn takes issue with what I had said. Here we go again...

I wrote:
One belief change of mine that allowed me to pursue my doubts about Christianity was the rejection of an eternal punishment in hell. This doctrine is completely barbaric. It is the biggest stick ever invented by man to keep believers from questioning their faith. Christian philosopher Dr. Glenn Peoples rejects this doctrine too in favor of annihilation, and says why in a recent post. Reject it like he does and you'll be freer to think about your faith.
Glenn recently responded to me, where he claimed
There’s one misconception here, in that I didn’t actually offer any arguments against the traditional view and in favour of annihilationism in that post.
Actually Glenn, I DO think the reason you embrace annihilationism was stated in your original post. That's how it works. First you find something abhorrent and then you look again at the Bible to try and make it something else. That's how it worked for the abolitionist movement, the feminist movement, and Preterism (although with Preterism it was merely a way to save Christianity from refutation). You should surely know this because you claim that giving up on an eternal hell will help Christianity. Glenn continues
The suggestion appears to be that believers are just too afraid to think critically about their faith, because they don’t want to get too sceptical and end up in hell forever. If believers stop teaching eternal torment, then the net result will be that more people will be inclined to give up their faith for lack of fear.
My experience was that once I gave up an eternal hell it was a relief to me. Claim differently all you want to. But it allowed me to consider that I might be wrong without the threat of an eternal punishment.

And Glenn argues that embracing annihilationism will be beneficial to Christianity. But without such a threat there is, well, no threat. It's not quite the same as universalism, but close. If all will be saved or if no one will suffer an eternal punishment then there is less motivation for missionary work or evangelism, and less of a need to preach correct doctrines rather than pop psychology which helps grow a church.

Without an eternal hell then another problem surfaces with the atonement. Typically the substitutionary doctrine says Jesus paid our punishment on the cross, but if there is less or no punishment, then why did Jesus need to do this at all? Why die to save human beings from extinction? To cease to exist is no punishment at all and therefore nothing to save anyone from.

I know he'll answer these questions to his satisfaction, but his answers don't satisfy me.

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When it comes to what the Bible teaches I don't usually get involved in telling Christians what it says, usually. I don't do it precisely because Christians themselves cannot agree. Whenever I try there is always some Christian who shows up and disagrees with me, because the Bible can be taken to mean so many different things.

Hell, if you get Donald McKim's massive 600+ page book, Dictionary of Major Biblical Interpreters, you'll see quite plainly that Christians cannot even agree on the proper methods for interpreting the Bible, much less on what it says!

To Christians who want to argue about the doctrine of hell I say this: Start a blog called "The Truth About Hell," and invite all Christians there. Debate it all you want to. Then come back here to report what your consensus is, and I'll debunk that.

18 comments:

Glenn said...

John, are you actually trying to tell me that you, rather than I, know how I came to hold annihilationism? Bizarre!

I have held to an annihilationist view for around 16 years. I have been raising objections like the one that you first quoted for maybe a couple of years now. Are you really sure that these are the objections that led me to annihilationism? It's probably best that you take my word for it.

By the wya, your comments on the death of Christ backfire a little. If the punishment for sin is death (as annihilationists teach), and if Jesus was our substitute, then obviously death is what he needed to endure. You ask why he would do that. I have to say, John, for someone with all that theological education, asking why I believe Jesus would die to prevent me from perishing and to give me eternal life is a bit surprising. It starts off with "for God so loved the world..."

Anonymous said...

Glenn, I didn't think you would agree, so what's new? But I do think the impetus for accepting annihilationism is as I say it is from the scholars who first proposed a change, irregardless of why you accept it. And I did give other examples.

Ryan Peter said...

John, you said:

"If all will be saved or if no one will suffer an eternal punishment then there is less motivation for missionary work or evangelism, and less of a need to preach correct doctrines rather than pop psychology which helps grow a church.

Without an eternal hell then another problem surfaces with the atonement. Typically the substitutionary doctrine says Jesus paid our punishment on the cross, but if there is less or no punishment, then why did Jesus need to do this at all? Why die to save human beings from extinction? To cease to exist is no punishment at all and therefore nothing to save anyone from."

I think that's pretty bad reasoning. To cease to exist is no punishment at all? Comon.

gallileo said...

In response to Ryans-
"
I think that's pretty bad reasoning. To cease to exist is no punishment at all? Comon."

Well I would think ceasing to exist does not seem to be a problem for atheists.

Christianity with annihilationism ? Why not choose atheism..same result, eliminate all the useless rules and superficial beliefs.

So I think if you are Christian, annihilationism is not very logical.

Annihilationism cuts out the heart of Christianity, like it or not.

So now you are back to , why does a loving god want to torture his creatures - infinitely - for finite evil ? Oh, and seems there are also a lot of 'holes cracks' etc in the system that the innocent are slipping through to hell. . the babies.. mentally retarded..oops forgot to evangelize the New World for a while.. etc. etc.

Just a cynical former xtian.

Unknown said...

For God so loved the world, he raped a teenage girl in order to send himself down to Earth to commit suicide to make himself forgive humans for doing things which he directly created humans with the capacity to do in the first place. What grace!

Fortunately for you, and the rest of us, such a ridiculous monstrosity as the Judeo-Christian death god doesn't exist except in your imagination. All you need to do to live a happier and more productive life is take your annihilationism one step further and annihilate your delusional belief that your imaginary friend really exists.

There is certainly no hell. But there is also certainly no heaven. There is only here and now. Your 6 1/2 billion fellow Earthlings, and this tiny speck of rock and gas called Earth, are hurtling through a vast, cold, unthinking and indifferent cosmos. It would notice less if we all disappeared than you would notice if a single atom in your left pinky toe disappeared. All we have is each other. All that exists is here and now. But all of that vast, indifferent, probably infinite cosmos can be ours if we don't destroy ourselves first. The universe itself is much more interesting, majestic, awe-inspiring and holy than any heaven. And IT ALL REALLY EXISTS! Isn't that amazing? It's all really there, and it could all be ours if we stopped focusing on imaginary things and instead focused on what is real! Free your mind from the ancient and terrible primitive baggage of Christianity and live your life without fear.

Mark Plus said...

If all will be saved or if no one will suffer an eternal punishment then there is less motivation for missionary work or evangelism, and less of a need to preach correct doctrines rather than pop psychology which helps grow a church.

As I've tried to articulate, Eternal Punishment won out over Annihilationism as the orthodox doctrine because it gave christians through the centuries an incentive to practice and spread the faith diligently. The hell doctrine unintentionally created the church, not the other way around.

busterggi said...

Keeping in mind that I'm not a believer - if the punishment for sin is annihiliation & Jesus was sent to be punished for our sins then shouldn't Jesus have been annihilated?

Otherwise Jesus was not really punished.

James Pate said...

Why did Jesus die, if the penalty for sin is eternal torment in hell?

Rick Lannoye said...

I hope no one minds if I point out that among the many good reasons to reject the doctrine of Hell is the fact that Jesus himself did.

I've actually written an entire book on this topic--"Hell? No! Why You Can Be Certain There's No Such Place As Hell," (for anyone interested, you can get a free ecopy of my book at my website: www.thereisnohell.com), but if I may, let me share one of the many points I make in it to explain why.

If one is willing to look, there's substantial evidence contained in the gospels to show that Jesus opposed the idea of Hell. For example, in Luke 9:51-56, is a story about his great disappointment with his disciples when they actually suggested imploring God to rain FIRE on a village just because they had rejected him. His response: "You don't know what spirit is inspiring this kind of talk!" Presumably, it was NOT the Holy Spirit. He went on, trying to explain how he had come to save, heal and relieve suffering, not be the CAUSE of it.

So it only stands to reason that this same Jesus, who was appalled at the very idea of burning a few people, for a few horrific minutes until they were dead, could never, ever burn BILLIONS of people for an ETERNITY!

True, there are a few statements that made their way into the gospels which place Hell on Jesus’ lips, but these adulterations came along many decades after his death, most likely due to the Church filling up with Greeks who imported their belief in Hades with them when they converted.

Glenn said...

jimbo: "Christianity with annihilationism ? Why not choose atheism..same result"

Really, so atheism has the result of eternal life for those who follow Christ, and nothing for the rest?

You might want to have another go.

Glenn said...

Dan, as long as atheists characterise Christian theology in the way you have, Christians will be safe from your critique of it. Fromy our obvious falsehood about the virgin birth (calling it rape) to your silly description of the atonement (calling human murder of Christ "suicide").

But hey, don't let me stop you making online atheists from looking like ignorant trolls. it serves my purposes rather well actually. ;)

kilo papa said...

Yeah,Dan,how dare you insult the blessed virgin birth by calling it rape! Don't you know that Glenns heavenly father very lovingly sprinkled his "magic dust" on Marys genitalia in a very "special" way. Rape?! Ha! Just a little "godly" spooning. Marys vagina was never touched!!(Right,Glenn?)

And the death of the Christman a suicide? Dan, how could your terrible sins be forgiven without blood flowing out of a savage,barbaric,sadistic,revolting,disgusting,irrational,ridiculous human sacrifice? I suppose you've got a better way?

Dan, please quit distorting Glenns precious book of sacred fairy tales. His invisible sky wizard might pull a "Haiti" on you.

Glenn said...

Kilo, I welcome this kind of thing, both from you and Dan. It sends exactly the right message.

Ryan Peter said...

@ Jimbo

"Christianity with annihilationism ? Why not choose atheism..same result, eliminate all the useless rules and superficial beliefs.

So I think if you are Christian, annihilationism is not very logical.

Annihilationism cuts out the heart of Christianity, like it or not."

Really? How?

@ Dan & Kilo Papa

Lol, hope you guys get plenty of physiotherapy as I'm sure your backs must be hurting REAL bad since you have to carry those giant chips on your shoulders...

Ryan Peter said...

@ busterggi

"Keeping in mind that I'm not a believer - if the punishment for sin is annihiliation & Jesus was sent to be punished for our sins then shouldn't Jesus have been annihilated?

Otherwise Jesus was not really punished."

It's a good point, but the resurrection here would be key, and I believe is probably THE key in Christian doctrine.

busterggi said...

Well Ryan, if Jesus knew he would be resurrected & was then he didn't really die. A fake sacrifice is no sacrifice.

Mark Plus said...

Speaking of physical resurrection, Lucretius mentions the idea a century before the time of Jesus and Paul, but in a materialist context:

And, even if time collected after death
The matter of our frames and set it all
Again in place as now, and if again
To us the light of life were given, O yet
That process too would not concern us aught,
When once the self-succession of our sense
Has been asunder broken.


In other words, Lucretius says that if your current physical and biological configuration could somehow reoccur in the future, long after your death, that reconstruction would not "resurrect" you because of the break in psychological continuity. Instead you'd have a separate individual, with your appearance and memories, perhaps, but not equal to you in 2010.

Considering that philosophers and science fiction writers still play around with this idea over 2,000 years later, that makes Lucretius' insight all the more remarkable. How could have have come up with such a scenario?

Ryan Peter said...

@busterggi
"Well Ryan, if Jesus knew he would be resurrected & was then he didn't really die. A fake sacrifice is no sacrifice."

The fact is that he did die, and even if he was only dead for three days he did die. Even if he knew he would be resurrected, he did die. Plus, you're forgetting that the crucifixion itself wasn't a walk in the park, and who knows if there were any further punishments outside of our own world?

You raise a good point, but I think you're presenting more of a play on words. If I cut my leg off knowing it'll grow back in three days, It's not as if I haven't really cut my leg off. I certainly have cut my leg off.