If Christianity Doesn’t Matter Why Do You Bother With It?
Former Pastor Bruce Gerencser runs an intelligent Blog which I heartily recommend. Recently he answered this question once and for all.
Good question.
On one hand Christianity doesn’t matter. The Bible doesn’t matter. Jesus, the Holy Spirit, God, the Church….it all simply doesn’t matter.
If you want to worship the Christian God….I am fine with it. I subscribe to the “live and let live” school of thought. Each to their own. May Jesus be with you. May the force be with you. May nothing be with you. I don’t care.
However…..
I do care about the influence Christianity has on our culture and government. I do care about the damage done to society in the name of the Christian God. I do care when people are hurt, and sometimes destroyed in the name of the Christian God.
When Christians want to make our country into a theocracy….It matters.
When Christians want their religion to have preference over any and all others…..It matters.
When Christians demand that atheists and agnostics be treated as Satan’s pawns….It matters.
When Christians attempt to teach religious dogma as scientific fact in our public schools….It matters.
When Christians attempt to force their religious moral code on everyone….It matters.
When Christians attempt to stand in the way of my pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness….It matters.
When Christians abuse and molest children in the name of their God….It matters.
When Christians wage war thousands of miles away in the name of their God….It matters.
When Christians mentally abuse people….It matters.
When Christian expect preferential treatment because of their God….It matters.
As long as Christians continue to force themselves on others and as long as they attack and demean anyone who is not a Christian….It matters.
As long as pastors and Churches get preferential tax code treatment….It matters.
That said….
As to whom you worship and where? It doesn’t matter.
As to what sacred text you use? It doesn’t matter.
I want every Christian to have the absolute freedom to worship their God.
And….
I want that same freedom to NOT worship any God or another God….
And as long as that courtesy is not extended to me, to every human being on the earth….
It matters.
This is the Link
10 comments:
Excellent post. I especially agree with his statement: "As long as pastors and Churches get preferential tax code treatment….It matters."
It irritates me that I have to subsidize religion. With our national debt being what it is, the best solution in my mind is to remove these tax breaks from churches and pastors. That would raise an incredible amount of revenue. Of course, that is unlikely to happen because of the political ramifications.
Eh, I'm not too keen on the whole "I want every Christian to have the absolute freedom to worship their God."
Your allowing a belief by which in it's very description, will allow all those things he's against.
If you allow them to actually believe in an all powerful god, who's coming back and wants us to follow him over man-made rules... than why SHOULDN'T Christians try and take over the legal system? After all - to them it's man made, and thus sinful, and thus needs to be changed.
Just take "freedom of religion" in our constitution. Christianity says worship no gods before the christian god. Sooo... how do you expect Christians not to attack that?
If you allow people to really believe they and their families could suffer in hell for all eternity, don't you EXPECT Christians to prance into the streets shouting about redemption?
I've been told by friends I use poor analogies, but I still don't agree. However I'll use this as a last analogy: It's like saying, "Sure, people can choose to breathe - just don't breathe my air!" You're granting someone the freedom to do what specifically has to go against your wishes.
I'm sorry but the only way to get a world in which Christians believe in the privacy of their own homes is to eradicate the religion as it is now, and change it into something akin to a Yoga fad. Ie, something that doesn't hold hellish consequences like.. well... hell!
I keep a similar list on my computer and a printed list in my computer bag.
I've had people ask the question, "Why do you care so much about something you don't believe in?"
And I answer: "Because you vote, and many of the people you vote FOR support these issues based on religious beliefs and not secular reasons." Then I show them the list.
Some have been quite impressed after I show them and 8.5x11 sheet of paper crammed with all the legal issues that religion has weaseled it's way into.
Yes this is a excellent post.Ive had faithful folks ask the same question,seems their faith makes them oblivious to the fact that even continued promotion of faiths of almost complete freedom. Sooner or later can still have a detrimental effect on quite a number other people.
They will then suggest stuff like yes but smoking has a detrimental effect on some folks,as do car and truck accidents etc.
First i think why is it faith doesnt seem to want to be any real role model?.Why is it im hearing faith suggest two wrongs might somehow prove anything to be right?.
Im also quietly thinking yes but mr/mrs caring theist you yourself EXPECT laws that try to help protect you and your family against possibility of danger.You expect some law and order, and even often continually demand more and more accountability.You expect the secular world has lots of law and order,surrounding matters that maybe might possibly effect you.
Yet faith is stuck fast in old thoughtless selfish! laws of ancient faith freedoms...Freedoms many faithful abusers hide behind..."Selfish" faith freedoms focused on "personal salvation", that often dont really even meet golden rules, with regards to the need of caring about the earthly safety of anyone else around us also.With the faithful your personal salvation seems to be by far the only thing you care about,making faith often a very selfish selfcentred thoughtless thing.
"I want that same freedom to NOT worship any God or another God…."
Id also like faithful folk to atleast show they even (honestly deserve) to include the golden rule in their faith books,having adopted it.They spout all about their golden rule plenty, but by what year will they decide to start actually honestly living by it?
By atleast making sure faiths are not afforded special faith freedoms that allow certain faithful to abuse.
While they dont do this ...Salvation remains barbaric and ignorantly selfish! and unloving,because it seals the detrimental fate for a number of people in this life here on this earth.
And the liberal faithful person is just as guilty for not taking any real honest action, to help atheists/angnostics quickly move towards demanding some remedy! of this long standing problem.
While this faithful barbaric ancient ignorance remains,the liberal faithful person, (shares a part in the continuing abuse) of the nasty arrogant fundamentle.Even the deaths of humans within cults like happened in jonestown!
And faithful collectively deserve little respect from anyone, until something is done about it.
My opinion is atheist/agnostic protest groups should start pressuring liberal faithful groups,to start being more honest and put their money where the mouth is.If the wish to suggest they honestly care,then its time to (take action) along side non believers in demanding governments enforce some change.
For now liberal faithful folk piss in the pockets of fundamentle abusers,by only offering words and counceling for those who`s live have often already been destroyed.
Jesus evidently was disliked for the ACTION of overturning tables of the moneychangers,so i was told.But then he wasnt the kind of bloke to be so keen on pissing in pocket of any fundamentlist acquaintances.
Lack of honest ACTION by liberal faithful folks in this world,should be a total embarrassment
Hello Bruce and G and others.
Good to see you back Bruce.
Mr. Loftus says you've answered this question once and for all.
he sounds like the Christian that says "God said it and that settles it".
Anyways when this question comes up I always say the same thing. Atheists love to play the martyr game. They love to be the hero and save the world from big bad Christians. If you didn't come up with these ridiculus scenarios you guys would be stuck crying in your beer until you could think of another way to appear to be superior to the outdated thinking of us Christians.
Let's look at this list together and see what's up?
The Christian influence on culture and govt. I might agree with you about the govt. but if you are "fine" with it then the culture is what it is.
You care about those hurt and or destroyed in the name of the Christian God. Who doesn't? I don't want guns outlawed, I want people to stop shooting each other. I don't want Christianity outlawed I want ignorance to be outlawed.
I don't want our country to made into a theocracy. I like to share what I think is the truth and let everyone decide for themselves. God gave us freewill because forcing you is not fair.
....treated as Satan's pawns. I'm sorry about that. If I could give you all a hug and tell you it's all gonna be OK I would.
Everything I've ever read about teaching anything in the public schools concerning "intelligent design" only wants to be taught along side of evolution as another "theory". What? you guys scared to have children think there could be something different than evolution?
I don't know any Christians that "force" their religious codes on any body. Maybe your conscience is doing that?
When Christians stand in the way of your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness? Hopefully even a few Atheists think this one is kinda funny.
I don't know what Christians are molesting and abusing children in the name of God? But I will stand in line with you guys and be the first to demand the execution.
Wars? Really, most all wars since the beginning of time have been waged over something other than religion. (like 90%).
The only mental abuse going on might be when we tell people they will go to hell without a personal relationship with Jesus? But I'm a big boy and handled it just fine. Get thicker skin and give people more credit. They can think for themselves ya know.
Preferential treatment? Oh yeah, like everytime I go out to dinner or to the movies I get a discount when I flash my Jesus card. You got me on that one.
Bruce, would you trade all the tax breaks churches get for all the money they give around our globe to help those people in need?
What your post basically says is this: If your religious your not allowed to have a voice in society because your choices might be influenced by your belief in some god?
So only Atheists should have a say?
A whopping 8 or 9 percent of our population get's to decide?
Dueces you crazy kids. feeno
It sounds likeThis list is a bit emotionally driven. It is certainly written from an American perspective.
I think you need to bring into account the way Christians live all across the world to even begin to make statements like the ones you have made. Overall, there is only a minority of truly practicing Christians in the US.
I could argue against this list from various angles, however the one I will choose is to replace this word "Christian" with "Atheist" and vice-versa. It seems to read more properly with me.
Having no Christianity or other religion is not a good thing. This was most evident during the Nazis Reich during WW2. They had no religion of any sort and this led to horrific atrocities mankind had never witnessed before. This can easily been seen in other Communist, socialist, and facist movements where religion has been outlawed. (read "Can Man Live Without God" for more info)
I don't think true practicing of Christianity leads to abuses of rights. I believe it is the opposite, it assures they are kept in tact. Read of William Wilberforce for instance. Did his faith lead him? Yes. And to where? What about Martin Luther King Jr.?
Feeno said..>" Atheists love to play the martyr game."
Its highly likely folks getting burned at the stake or drowned accused of being witches,were most likely pretty much atheist at the time too id say.I bet to them it really didnt seem much like any god or jesus was bothering coming to help them!.Some likely screamed jesus lord help me!...To no avail
Were they playing the atheist martyr game too Feeno?.
You sure its not more honestly likely to be about, there simply being many very "good reasons"! that many folks are "questioning" it.
F...."If you didn't come up with these ridiculus scenarios you guys would be stuck crying in your beer until you could think of another way to appear to be superior to the outdated thinking of us Christians."
Which ridiculus scenarios were you thinking of?
F......."The Christian influence on culture and govt. I might agree with you about the govt. but if you are "fine" with it then the culture is what it is. "
Many of us are not at all fine with it!.
Christians are the ones! fine with it,there is many more of them! so they keep voting it in.
F......"You care about those hurt and or destroyed in the name of the Christian God. Who doesn't? I don't want guns outlawed, I want people to stop shooting each other. I don't want Christianity outlawed I want ignorance to be outlawed."
I want people to choose to not drive drunk too,but they drive drunk.Id rather folks didnt murder each other,but sadly some do.Id rather folks treated their animals with respect,but sadly many dont.
Is your arguement really honestly about worries of things being outlawed.Or more about loss of faith freedoms?.
Surely some double standards ?, specially when christianity! is often involved also with regard to matters like supressing freedoms with regard to rights of gay marriage,abortion etc.
Need for some regulation is often just all part of our reality.Without it we end up in anarchy
F...."I don't want our country to made into a theocracy. I like to share what I think is the truth and let everyone decide for themselves. God gave us freewill because forcing you is not fair."
Yeah but extra old laws of "freedom of faith", allows for others to legally express their "freedom of faith" by way of all sorts of different manner of force and abuse....Lets atleast try to keep our thoughts in the real world a little,its mighty fine that you want to let everyone choose.But we simply cant rely on all christians following you like the new found messiah.History tells us while legal "freedom of faith" exists,people will very likely continue to push the legal limits and abuse it.
We simply have need of regulation because people are not "perfect".Thats a reality.
F....."What? you guys scared to have children think there could be something different than evolution?"
What can you not understand about it not really seeming like science?.Science tends to have evidence! as well as ideas!.Faith tends to have thousands of years of ideas!, but never any evidence?.
Faith is maybe slightly more scientific than the science of tooth fairys.(mind you tooth fairys pay real money? hmm??)
Should we include the science of tooth fairys in all school curriculums too?
Feeno....."I don't know any Christians that "force" their religious codes on any body. Maybe your conscience is doing that?"
Sometimes i wonder if christians even have a very honest concience?,when they say things like this.
So Feeno, you never heard of or seen the news with regards to Johnstown type cults.You think African kids holed up in some refuge house escaping being hunted down being acused as witches,dont exist?.Westbro baptist is a myth?...Warren Jeffs?
You sure you not just trying to think you dont know any christians like that.Saying something is fine,but its matching the facts that make whats actually so honest.
F......"When Christians stand in the way of your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness? Hopefully even a few Atheists think this one is kinda funny."
When christians stand in the way of life,liberty and pursuit of happiness,for African kids hunted down accused of being witches.
Do you really suggest there is a funny side we atheiest should be seeing?.
When Westboro Baptists hate fags,theres a funny side atheist should see?.
Have you thought about this stuff in any real depth Feeno?.
F...."I don't know what Christians are molesting and abusing children in the name of God? But I will stand in line with you guys and be the first to demand the execution."
Ohhhh thats so wonderful....When will you also bother to get involved and demand "faith freedoms" are no longer allowed to be any special free ticket to "freedoms to faithfully" abuse ?.
F....."Wars? Really, most all wars since the beginning of time have been waged over something other than religion. (like 90%)."
Ohhh whatever.
Simple test..Do you think you can show me the same abusive equivilant atheism quotes on US military scopes? ..Please.Thanks kindly in advance!
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2010/01/
manufacturer_backs_down_on_bib.php
F..."The only mental abuse going on might be when we tell people they will go to hell without a personal relationship with Jesus? But I'm a big boy and handled it just fine. Get thicker skin and give people more credit. They can think for themselves ya know."
Translation:
I Feeno was lucky i grew up in some easy going liberal christian group.Who gives a f**k if some other folks are unlucky to get born to some real abusive faiths.Im ok,they should just get thicker skins!...Ohh yeah including those soft c**k thin skinned Africans too, bloody complaining about being hunted down as witches.What do they expect out of life,it to be like some sweet holiday camp or something?
F...."Bruce, would you trade all the tax breaks churches get for all the money they give around our globe to help those people in need?"
Ahh use of the traditional faithful ad hominem surrounding matters of charity.
Please explain why churches need tax brakes,for tax breaks to be able to be made available for charity collections?.Charity is correlated to the factor our humanity!,there is nothing that suggests its proved it actually need be connected to matters of faith.
F....."What your post basically says is this: If your religious your not allowed to have a voice in society because your choices might be influenced by your belief in some god?"
Ohh i totally disagree...And i suggest its even a blatant injustice that you try and even suggest it as such .I suggest by doing so you really disregard much abuse,and seem to class much suffering caused by faith as some type of unavoidable statistic that not worth mentioning.How does this match with your Jesus belief?
F......"So only Atheists should have a say?
A whopping 8 or 9 percent of our population get's to decide?
Dueces you crazy kids. feeno"
No its fine Christians have their say....But their say isnt necessarily always correct.
Christian might have a whopping 91 percent of votes,but that dont do much to prove those 91percent of votes are being made by folks who actually give matters enough thought.
And you calling non faithful out here, as being the crazy kids??!!*#@@??.
My homie Feeno,whats the rub?
Adam said..."Overall, there is only a minority of truly practicing Christians in the US."
And
"I don't think true practicing of Christianity leads to abuses of rights. I believe it is the opposite, it assures they are kept in tact. Read of William Wilberforce for instance. Did his faith lead him? Yes. And to where? What about Martin Luther King Jr.?"
The old tried and trusted lame argument of ... If only christians choose to be true christians !
Everything would be rosy.
Stupidly simply overlooks the long standing problem nobody actually agrees on what a true christian might likely be.
Its some unsolvable riddle hidden within the devine book, which just so happen is so "devine" it even happens to confuse and devide almost everyone that happens to read it
Ahhh may all the great mythical gods bless their cotton church socks.
If it wasnt continually all to often the cause of much pain,it might even be completely hilarious
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