Thats pretty powerful, although we see God at fault for this (if He exists), but the christian community will no doubt say this is an example of what our sinfulness has done? go figure.
It’s truly sad that God / Yahweh gets a free pass form his Biblical lies and sin, yet the humanity (that tries to clean up His messes) is blamed with eternal (Original) sin.
The fact that God and Sin have three letters should cause one to stop and think.
It also very revealing that the Biblical God can make promises of love and care for all His creation with plainly no intent to honor any of it, yet Christians continually excuse this sinful God with Please Blame Me theology.
Hey, Christians; wake up! We all know actions speak louder than words.
Now, Your Theological Exam:
The Biblical God became a shameful and sinful God, when:
A. Before the Fall in the Garden of Eden.
B. After Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden.
C. Both (I cann’t reveal the correct answer. (NOT!))
Lvka, if you didn't watch it then why do you feel the need to comment?
Because presentation is everything. (I know it's not fair, but life is not fair). He sabbotaged himself from before he even got the chance to present his ideas.
(Actually, it was YouTube itself that sabbotaged his whole endeavour by randomly selecting THAT particular frame from ALL the THOUSANDS of frames in his video -- ain't randomness and chance a stinker? -- Heck, one might even begin to doubt the very process of evolution *itself*, if such small misfortunes keep on repeating themselves a *bit* TOO often here, on this blog...)
How can you trust or even take someone seriously who from the very beginning starts of on the wrong foot? In real life, "books" ARE judged by their "covers".
We I see this video of the skin and bones of children starving...I think of how "we" did not feed them. Particularly in the states (US) where we have so much. We could have built canals for irrigation and taught them to grow food. War, however is still a major problem when it comes to stealing food. 1. I see that this world "needs" a Savior. I see the need to be rescued. 2. I see the consequences of sin. 3. I see that there are causes for these effects and we can easily ask "what happened?" instead of why and get a large portion of the answer. 4. I see the evil choices of men like Adolf Hilter and those who followed him. 5. I see clearly that life is not fair and this video fully demonstrates that life is not fair. No universe with choices can have fairness because our choices affect others....therefore "fairness" is an illogical concept to appeal to - to somehow discredit the Creator. 6. I see people who will be rewarded IF they endured their suffering with faith and trusted in the Creator. 7. I see a temporary creation that screams choices are a problem for us UNLESS we obey God perfectly (and we need to learn how to do this and have the motive to ALWAYS do this perfectly).
Cosmically slavery to God is logical.
Becoming adopted through the price of His Blood and becoming His Eternal Child is even more logical. A logic His Spirit opens our eyes up to.
I see an excused called “God” who tries to escapes totally responsibility with an illogical system created by the very people trying to subjectivly protect Him called: Theology.
I continually look for any proof of God in the present universe and only find Christians pointing back to a humanly created Canon called the Bible, whose 66 books were grouped, not to prove a loving God / Savior, but to fight other believing fellow brothers of the faith (Christians) in a power struggle over who is a heretic and who is orthodox.
I see Christians, who continually makes excuses (via a warped philosophy called theology) to protect this God (Savior / Trinity) who has progressively evolved though Creedal formulations; not for thankfulness from a “Heavenly Father” who is showering blessing on His believing children, but so the God concept (formulated in the Bible over time) can be recreated to protect this “might makes right” trend of current correct (ortho) teaching (doxy) where fellow believers can be excommunicated and murdered as heretics.
I see a movement know as Christianity as completely a human invention created to blame the only tangible creature of both God and the Bible: Humanity itself!
I see a bloodthirsty God who murders His son.
I see a God, known as Yahweh, who has a craving for blood like a vampire and the blames His own creation with: “Look what you made me do!”
Finally, I see a God who is not worth saving with some wrapped philosophical system called “Theology”!
Looking at this video, you'd see powerful evidence that contrary to the idea that the world represents a place where a sovereign good God directs every single thing that happens and represents his will.
Thing is, that has nothing to do with the bible and posting only half of scripture without the other half just doesn't detract from the biblical picture, the one that indicates that the world NEEDS REDEMPTION both physically and spiritually and that God who is at work at that has not finished what he is doing. The process of redemption has not been completed and the world is still full of the hellish results of our ongoing rebellion.
Faith needs Theology in order to give Apologetics its illogical way to excuse God.
In the real world, a company is held responsible for its creation. Those hurt by negligent actions can be sued for damages.
In the illogical world of theology, victims are blamed for the negligent failure of the Creator (God) to provide care / Due diligence in the control of a product (Creation).
God’s defense in the above case, and its continuance in theology, is nothing short of mental cruelty where the abused are required to make an apology for willful negligence.
In the real world, a company is held responsible for its creation. Those hurt by negligent actions can be sued for damages.
That's a pretty narrow view of the "real" world to think moral landscape is defined after the model of 20/21 century litigious corporate America as opposed to a narrow part of it itself.
In the illogical world of theology, victims are blamed for the negligent failure of the Creator (God) to provide care / Due diligence in the control of a product (Creation).
By defining us as victims, you've already imposed an overly simplified narrative on us that is questionable. We certainly could be called victims on some accounts, and to say that's the whole account strikes me as quite overly simplistic.
God’s defense in the above case, and its continuance in theology, is nothing short of mental cruelty where the abused are required to make an apology for willful negligence.
A theology of negligence certainly isn't mine. God is active in his creation at work to counter evil working superveniantly as well as through creation suffering with, for and because of his creatures.
Rob, Your apology for God (trying to keep God on his divine throne) makes a much sense as a mother who brings her out of control kid into a store and then blames the management for all the displays her little brat destroyed.
Our legal system, even though created by “Fall Humanity” is so superior to the legal code of the Bible (including some of the lame-brain teachings of a sexless Jesus on adultery) that the only legal codes left are now religious ideals. This includes the so-called Ten Commandments which enforces a theocracy with the first 4 followed by death for most all the last 6.
Plus, you Christians seem hell bent to get the dogma of Original Sin out of the Genesis 3, mostly to justify an absentee “Heavenly Father” called God.
In Genesis 3 we find a God is so confused and screwed up that he thought the serpent had legs (even though he created him!!) and cursed him to eat dust (Genesis 3: 14). Plus, already in the Genesis creation story legless animals are already created (1:24).
So, from the Bible itself, we have proof that God is a liar in that Snakes don’t eat dust (Snakes never did feed on dirt and never will! The fact apologists use that dirt is on the food snakes eat makes it no more a dirt eater than dirt on foods we eat such as strawberries)!
Simply put, God needs to get his facts straight before he wants to blame humans for his stupidly and lies!
So if there is Original Sin, this Fallen State is called “God”.
This is why theology is illogical and will never hold up in a modern court of law.
"called “God” who tries to escapes totally responsibility"
It is complete foolishness to compare the Infinite Creator Who sustains all existence (so that we make choices) to that of a man made company or some finite institution.
God does NOT directly control all things like we are programmed robots or puppets - neither does He have trouble "accepting resposibility" for His Part in creation.
Until we go deeper into Theodicy and begin to analyze "choice" itself and the role of knowledge as well discuss God's atemporal existence and infinite determinism and its relationship to God's together acting with our choices (sunergeism) - you are not going to begin to see how God's Plan is absolutely PERFECT.
In the early years of human civilization suffering was expected. There are multiple reasons for suffering and its various purposes. I would be happy to go through at least a dozen of them. Often times we do not know God's specific reasons for our suffering individually - but we have several things to choose from using conjecture.
God knows exactly what He is doing in this temporary creation. God makes no mistakes. I would be more than happy to defend this as I have done both philosophically and on individual objections.
When "I" personally see a video like this and see the children my immediate response is often "Lord, forgive my sin." This is because I am reminded of my ridiculous discontent in the midst of blessing. Contrast is necessary not only for appreciation - but also for basic experience and knowledge.
One thing will always be for certain. There is no such thing as equal opportunity or the illusion of "fairness" in a universe with cognitive beings making choices. No excuses needed - just Logic.
So what is God's defense? None. God needs no defense - and God needs no excuse. BUT! There are reasons for why the temporary creation is the way in which it is and how providing a "heaven" for God's children is important and clearly the greater good (because it is "eternal" and not just temporary). If God sees that heaven would have been problematic because of "choice" and the necessity of learning and working through the tough issues which requires mistakes (which could be eternal violations against God's Perfect Nature) - then why would God ever "start" with heaven? How can we have heaven without knowing how much God loves us (this is not quantified but rather the quality of Self-Sacrificing Love).
This, BTW, is NOT process theology.
Process theology fails... and does NOT address God's omniscience nor atemporal state of ordination.
God knows exactly what He is doing in this temporary creation. God makes no mistakes. I would be more than happy to defend this as I have done both philosophically and on individual objections.
Breckmin: Here is my problem in discussing the term “God” with a Christian like you. Based on your statement above, you have a “God’ in now in His twentieth revision.
The Old El / Yahweh of the Hebrew Bible is dead and gone and your concept of God has more in common with Plato and Neo-Platonism that the El, Elohim or Yahweh of the Deuteronomistic History.
Now, here is a simple question that only requires a “yes” or “no”: In Genesis 2: 16 -17, did God lie?
Well, years before I should even be having a midlife crisis, I had a senior moment and this was not the word I intended. I meant that God acts unilaterally.
Harry,
I don't know what I said that you are calling an analogy. You may be mistaking me for another person.
I don't recognize your analagy as fitting for anything I've said either. It is applied emotively and there is no reason that we have to apply that analogy to God, at least according to my theology.
Our legal system, even though created by “Fall Humanity” is so superior to the legal code of the Bible
I'm sure our legal code is better for our society than the Bible's legal code which is not intended for all time but for a certain time and place and has been superceded by Jesus.
And our legal code with volumes upon volumes upon volumes of law would've been completely inept for God's choosen people in the ancient middle east.
As for the rest of your post, I'm sorry but it was pretty horrid. I'm completely unconcerned about whether snakes literally had legs as I don't know that the story was meant to be taken as a moment by moment breakdown of concrete events. So snakes don't eat dust? animals that move along the ground were already created? REally? this is what passes for a biblical inconsistency? Look, I can't even tell why a young earth creationist would have a hard time with this let alone myself who is open to a variety of understandings of the text. But quite frankly I'm not that interested in pursuing it as I get weary of the constant throughing out every biblical problem when the original topic didn't turn out to be so good.
What does this alleged biblical inconsistency have to do with the video which contrasts (ridiculously prooftexted and severed from the more complex scriptural picture) of God's blessings and soverignty along side the terrible brokenness of the world.
I'm sure our legal code is better for our society than the Bible's legal code which is not intended for all time but for a certain time and place and has been superceded by Jesus.
Oh really?
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matt. 5: 17 - 19)
And
"It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law." (Luke 16:17)
Based on these statements of Jesus:
If the Torah “has been superseded by Jesus”; then when?
Please explain the Christians who Paul considers his opponents in Galatians.
Why then Peter’s Vision in Acts 11?
Finally, why did Paul go before the “Pillars” in Acts 15 if Jesus’ actions and life had already superseded the Torah?
Fact is, the verses in this video and many others like them in the bible (promises of protection for those who trust in the lord, promises to answer prayer) are predictions and therefore falsifiable.
They have been falsified.
I think the Christian might have a legitimate free-will defense concerning the evil acts committed by nonchristians against other nonchristians or animals ("rebellion"). But the problem of natural evil and the problem of unanswered Christian prayer have never been solved, and never will be.
"Now, here is a simple question that only requires a “yes” or “no”: In Genesis 2: 16 -17, did God lie?"
God does not lie...this would be foolishness to accuse God of lying.
Why would an Infinite All Logically Powerful God ever need to lie? There is NO reason for God to ever lie.
RE: Genesis 2: 17 "muth thmuth" is easily translated "to die you shall die" others have offered a dynamic equivalent of "dying you shall die." It is two-fold of both immediate spiritual death and eventual physical death.
Death means separation...either from God or from the "body."
Adam and Eve died spiritually immediately the day in which they ate of the fruit. As a result the human race would suffer the capability of death (separation from the body when the body fails) from old age.
This is not considered a biblical difficulty...but there ARE indeed biblical difficulties that are legitimate.
"How do you know (based on what Biblical text) that Satan is bad / evil?"
Satan is an English word that means adversary. (from the Arabic derivation). In the Hebrew it meant "the accuser" but in the Tanakh (the book of Job) "e-shtn" is also clearly translated "the adversary."
We know that Satan is "bad"/evil because of what he does as an accuser (who accuses you of sins that God has forgiven you for) and because he is our enemy or adversary. It is an axiom in Christianity that satan is our enemy and is not difficult to figure out. The New Testament is very clear on this (even Jesus' words to Peter).
"How does you philosophical God (theologically revised as he is) deal with the Biblical term “Satan” especially in the Hebrew Bible?"
The concept of satan from the Tenakh is corroborated by both the pseudopigrapha and other apocryhpal writings such as the Assumption of Moses and the Book of Wisdom. In the pseduopigrapha there are great riches in Enoch 2 and I believe they completely corroborate the Genesis account (clearly with imperfections to be expected), In the Tanakh we see the serpent (not snake) in the garden as well as "the adversary" (e-shten) in Job 1:6-12 for instance.
The devil is not a new concept - even the Jews at Jesus' time referred to Beelzebub (lord of the flies) as the "ruler of the demons."
Logical causes set in motion and we have equivocation of the English word "evil" since ill circumstances or natural disassters are NOT a violation against God's Holy Nature like our sin/evil is.
It is important to understand that God's judgement may look like "evil" to us because we are about to receive something unwanted - but it does NOT mean that God would use the English word "evil" (to define a so called "natural" dissaster). Clarification requires more explanation always, because of the imperfection of the English words that we use with respect to the Infinite Creator ("enemy" is a perfect example).
"..(cont.) and the problem of unanswered Christian prayer have never been solved, and never will be."
No such thing. There are NO unanswered prayers that Christians are left with before they die. Often the answer is just "no, not my will."
I've have never heard a mature Christian believer claim that there are somehow "unanswered prayers."
No, wait (patience) and yes are the answers. "Wait" is often wrongly interpreted by our impatience as a "no."
Breckmin returns with his special pleading. Tell the Haitians digging their loved ones out of rubble that God has told them to wait. Your morality is narcissistic wishful thinking and I can only hope you are confronted with unimaginable suffering so you can apply your linguistic games as a solution to evil.
You have fallen into my Christian “God must be good / God needs to be good” trap. I will expect you to support this claim based on the Hebrew of the MT and the Greek of the LXX texts.
Sorry about the late response, but due to time and bussiness matters, I have been away from the computer.
However, rest assured; I’ll respond fully to your poor exegetical beliefs with Biblical facts by Saturday morning at the latest.
Breckmin stated: God does not lie...this would be foolishness to accuse God of lying. Why would an Infinite All Logically Powerful God ever need to lie? There is NO reason for God to ever lie.
RE: The following are example of your failure to understand neither the Hebrew Bible nor the ture chartacter of God:
In 1 Kings, Yahweh has his 400 prophets lie to Ahab: 6 Then the king of Israel gathered the prophets together, about four hundred men, and said to them, “Shall I go against Ramoth-gilead to battle or shall I refrain?” And they said, “Go up, for the Lord will give it into the hand of the king.” (1 Kings 22: 6)
Jehoshaphat feels God has His prophets lying to Ahab and tells him to send for the prophet Micaiah who again confirms that God is a lair:
19 Micaiah said, “Therefore, hear the word of the LORD. I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left. 20 “The LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said this while another said that. 21 “Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, ‘I will entice him.’ 22 “The LORD said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.’ 23 “Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you.” (1 Kings 22: 19 – 23)
The Prophet Jeremiah accuses God of being a deceiver and a liar: 10 Then I said, “Ah, Lord GOD! Surely You have utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, ‘You will have peace’; whereas a sword touches the throat.” Jeremiah 4: 10
And again, he repeats it later: 7 O LORD, You have deceived me and I was deceived; You have overcome me and prevailed. I have become a laughingstock all day long; Everyone mocks me. (Jeremiah 20:7)
In Ezekiel 14: 1-11, God will lie to anyone He fails to like: …the LORD will answer him by myself: 8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. 10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him; 11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 7b - 10)
In Genesis 2: 17, God lies when He tells Adam and Eve that the very day they eat of it, they shall surly die and they don’t. (Notice your NISV “dynamic equivalent” avoided the word יום “day”)
Breckmin, apparently you have better morals and ethics then the God you love and worship!
Breckmin stated: Satan is an English word that means adversary. (from the Arabic derivation). In the Hebrew it meant "the accuser" but in the Tanakh (the book of Job) "e-shtn" is also clearly translated "the adversary."
We know that Satan is "bad"/evil because of what he does as an accuser (who accuses you of sins that God has forgiven you for) and because he is our enemy or adversary. It is an axiom in Christianity that satan is our enemy and is not difficult to figure out. The New Testament is very clear on this (even Jesus' words to Peter).
RE: Based on what real hard textual evidence Breckmin?
Here is the real picture of Satan in the Hebrew Bible:
Satan is called by Jesus a “Liar and the father of all lies”. However, the Bible fails to give one single incident of Satan lying. Even the serpent in the Garden of Eden is depicted as stating the truth while Yahweh lied (The very day you eat of it, you shall die). This serpent in the Garden of Eden has more in common with the medical rod of Asclepius noted for wisdom. Satan has more morals than God himself as Satan has never murdered defenseless men, women, children, babies and the unborn as God did in the Hebrew Bible. Now, compared to God, Satan has been an angle of love!
Satan was never been hated for what he preached (unlike Jesus whose so-called ministry of love went from zero to death in three years or less)! The statement that Jesus said: “By their fruits you will know them.” Matt. 7:16 - 20 give one proof that Satan’s actions are vindicated while Jesus’ actions definitely are not (Jesus was the “tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire” ( crucified)). It’s funny how a man like Jesus, who is said to have loved all of humanity, ended up hated and killed by the end results of his own so called love (Talk about a moral and ethical contradiction)!
In light of God lying, murdering, and using genocide when he has a temper fit, Satan is by far the lesser evil, if he is evil at all!
The Bible is like an elderly senile citizen who is usually incoherent and out of touch with reality. However, because of the love of her children (the believers) who are driven on by the denial of reality along with some creative ingenuity (theology), she (the bible) is loving taken by the arm and apologetically helped to shuffle along.
Like the Wizard in the Wizard of Oz, the curtain has been pulled back and we find Breckmin working the controls of theology trying to keep his god functioning and up right.
But sadly, Breckmin apparently has better morals and ethics then the God he loves and worships!
35 comments:
Thats pretty powerful, although we see God at fault for this (if He exists), but the christian community will no doubt say this is an example of what our sinfulness has done? go figure.
I didn't watch the two-minute video, but I doubt the guy poaching the seal there is Jesus Christ at His second coming...
Very disturbing.
Lvka, if you didn't watch it then why do you feel the need to comment?
Wow. Nicely done. I especially liked the I Peter verse juxtaposed with the shot of the twin towers.
It’s truly sad that God / Yahweh gets a free pass form his Biblical lies and sin, yet the humanity (that tries to clean up His messes) is blamed with eternal (Original) sin.
The fact that God and Sin have three letters should cause one to stop and think.
It also very revealing that the Biblical God can make promises of love and care for all His creation with plainly no intent to honor any of it, yet Christians continually excuse this sinful God with Please Blame Me theology.
Hey, Christians; wake up! We all know actions speak louder than words.
Now, Your Theological Exam:
The Biblical God became a shameful and sinful God, when:
A. Before the Fall in the Garden of Eden.
B. After Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden.
C. Both
(I cann’t reveal the correct answer. (NOT!))
Lvka, if you didn't watch it then why do you feel the need to comment?
Because presentation is everything.
(I know it's not fair, but life is not fair). He sabbotaged himself from before he even got the chance to present his ideas.
(Actually, it was YouTube itself that sabbotaged his whole endeavour by randomly selecting THAT particular frame from ALL the THOUSANDS of frames in his video -- ain't randomness and chance a stinker? -- Heck, one might even begin to doubt the very process of evolution *itself*, if such small misfortunes keep on repeating themselves a *bit* TOO often here, on this blog...)
Lvka,
Contempt prior to investigation is a short-cut to ignorance.
How can you trust or even take someone seriously who from the very beginning starts of on the wrong foot? In real life, "books" ARE judged by their "covers".
Here is the loving Biblical God’s promise to His creation:
Cruse you be from toe to eye.
Cruse you be until the day you die!
(Yes God. We love you too!)
Well LvKa, I will just fix the problem and change the thumbnail. And voila, no more book cover to judge!
Though apparently the change will take up to 6 hours, so oh well.
We I see this video of the skin and bones of children starving...I think of how "we" did not feed them.
Particularly in the states (US) where we have so much. We could have built canals for irrigation and taught them to grow food. War, however is still a major problem when it comes to stealing food.
1. I see that this world "needs" a Savior. I see the need to be rescued.
2. I see the consequences of sin.
3. I see that there are causes for these effects and we can easily ask "what happened?" instead of why and get a large portion of the answer.
4. I see the evil choices of men like Adolf Hilter and those who followed him.
5. I see clearly that life is not fair and this video fully demonstrates that life is not fair.
No universe with choices can have fairness because our choices affect others....therefore "fairness" is an illogical concept to appeal to - to somehow discredit the Creator.
6. I see people who will be rewarded IF they endured their suffering with faith and trusted in the Creator.
7. I see a temporary creation that screams choices are a problem for us UNLESS we obey God perfectly (and we need to learn how to do this and have the motive
to ALWAYS do this perfectly).
Cosmically slavery to God is logical.
Becoming adopted through the price of His Blood and becoming His Eternal Child is even more logical.
A logic His Spirit opens our eyes up to.
Question everything.
I see an excused called “God” who tries to escapes totally responsibility with an illogical system created by the very people trying to subjectivly protect Him called: Theology.
I continually look for any proof of God in the present universe and only find Christians pointing back to a humanly created Canon called the Bible, whose 66 books were grouped, not to prove a loving God / Savior, but to fight other believing fellow brothers of the faith (Christians) in a power struggle over who is a heretic and who is orthodox.
I see Christians, who continually makes excuses (via a warped philosophy called theology) to protect this God (Savior / Trinity) who has progressively evolved though Creedal formulations; not for thankfulness from a “Heavenly Father” who is showering blessing on His believing children, but so the God concept (formulated in the Bible over time) can be recreated to protect this “might makes right” trend of current correct (ortho) teaching (doxy) where fellow believers can be excommunicated and murdered as heretics.
I see a movement know as Christianity as completely a human invention created to blame the only tangible creature of both God and the Bible: Humanity itself!
I see a bloodthirsty God who murders His son.
I see a God, known as Yahweh, who has a craving for blood like a vampire and the blames His own creation with: “Look what you made me do!”
Finally, I see a God who is not worth saving with some wrapped philosophical system called “Theology”!
Looking at this video, you'd see powerful evidence that contrary to the idea that the world represents a place where a sovereign good God directs every single thing that happens and represents his will.
Thing is, that has nothing to do with the bible and posting only half of scripture without the other half just doesn't detract from the biblical picture, the one that indicates that the world NEEDS REDEMPTION both physically and spiritually and that God who is at work at that has not finished what he is doing. The process of redemption has not been completed and the world is still full of the hellish results of our ongoing rebellion.
Faith needs Theology in order to give Apologetics its illogical way to excuse God.
In the real world, a company is held responsible for its creation. Those hurt by negligent actions can be sued for damages.
In the illogical world of theology, victims are blamed for the negligent failure of the Creator (God) to provide care / Due diligence in the control of a product (Creation).
God’s defense in the above case, and its continuance in theology, is nothing short of mental cruelty where the abused are required to make an apology for willful negligence.
In the real world, a company is held responsible for its creation. Those hurt by negligent actions can be sued for damages.
That's a pretty narrow view of the "real" world to think moral landscape is defined after the model of 20/21 century litigious corporate America as opposed to a narrow part of it itself.
In the illogical world of theology, victims are blamed for the negligent failure of the Creator (God) to provide care / Due diligence in the control of a product (Creation).
By defining us as victims, you've already imposed an overly simplified narrative on us that is questionable. We certainly could be called victims on some accounts, and to say that's the whole account strikes me as quite overly simplistic.
God’s defense in the above case, and its continuance in theology, is nothing short of mental cruelty where the abused are required to make an apology for willful negligence.
A theology of negligence certainly isn't mine. God is active in his creation at work to counter evil working superveniantly as well as through creation suffering with, for and because of his creatures.
Rob,
Goodness is a supervenient property and to have innocent children suffer defies the definition of the term.
Rob,
Your apology for God (trying to keep God on his divine throne) makes a much sense as a mother who brings her out of control kid into a store and then blames the management for all the displays her little brat destroyed.
Our legal system, even though created by “Fall Humanity” is so superior to the legal code of the Bible (including some of the lame-brain teachings of a sexless Jesus on adultery) that the only legal codes left are now religious ideals. This includes the so-called Ten Commandments which enforces a theocracy with the first 4 followed by death for most all the last 6.
Plus, you Christians seem hell bent to get the dogma of Original Sin out of the Genesis 3, mostly to justify an absentee “Heavenly Father” called God.
In Genesis 3 we find a God is so confused and screwed up that he thought the serpent had legs (even though he created him!!) and cursed him to eat dust (Genesis 3: 14). Plus, already in the Genesis creation story legless animals are already created (1:24).
So, from the Bible itself, we have proof that God is a liar in that Snakes don’t eat dust (Snakes never did feed on dirt and never will! The fact apologists use that dirt is on the food snakes eat makes it no more a dirt eater than dirt on foods we eat such as strawberries)!
Simply put, God needs to get his facts straight before he wants to blame humans for his stupidly and lies!
So if there is Original Sin, this Fallen State is called “God”.
This is why theology is illogical and will never hold up in a modern court of law.
"called “God” who tries to escapes totally responsibility"
It is complete foolishness to compare the Infinite Creator Who sustains all existence (so that we make choices) to that of a man made company or some finite institution.
God does NOT directly control all things like we are programmed robots or puppets - neither does He have trouble "accepting resposibility" for His Part in creation.
Until we go deeper into Theodicy and begin to analyze "choice" itself and the role of knowledge as well discuss God's atemporal existence and infinite determinism
and its relationship to God's together acting with our choices (sunergeism) - you are not going to begin to see how God's Plan is absolutely PERFECT.
In the early years of human civilization suffering was expected. There are multiple reasons for suffering and its various purposes. I would be happy to go through at least a dozen of them. Often times we do not know God's specific reasons for our suffering individually - but we have several things to choose from using conjecture.
God knows exactly what He is doing in this temporary creation. God makes no mistakes. I would be more than happy to defend this as I have done both philosophically and on individual objections.
When "I" personally see a video like this and see the children my immediate response is often "Lord, forgive my sin." This is because I am reminded of my ridiculous discontent in the midst of blessing. Contrast is necessary not only for appreciation - but also for basic experience and knowledge.
One thing will always be for certain. There is no such thing
as equal opportunity or the illusion of "fairness" in a universe with cognitive beings making choices. No excuses needed - just Logic.
So what is God's defense? None. God needs no defense - and God needs no excuse. BUT! There are reasons for why the temporary creation is the way in which it is and how providing a "heaven" for God's children is important and clearly the greater good (because it is "eternal" and not just temporary).
If God sees that heaven would have been problematic because of "choice" and the necessity of learning and working through the tough issues which requires mistakes (which could be eternal violations against God's Perfect Nature) - then why would God ever "start" with heaven? How can we have heaven without knowing how much God loves us (this is not quantified but rather the quality of Self-Sacrificing Love).
This, BTW, is NOT process theology.
Process theology fails... and does NOT address God's omniscience nor atemporal state of ordination.
God knows exactly what He is doing in this temporary creation. God makes no mistakes. I would be more than happy to defend this as I have done both philosophically and on individual objections.
Breckmin:
Here is my problem in discussing the term “God” with a Christian like you. Based on your statement above, you have a “God’ in now in His twentieth revision.
The Old El / Yahweh of the Hebrew Bible is dead and gone and your concept of God has more in common with Plato and Neo-Platonism that the El, Elohim or Yahweh of the Deuteronomistic History.
Now, here is a simple question that only requires a “yes” or “no”: In Genesis 2: 16 -17, did God lie?
Goodness is a supervenient
Well, years before I should even be having a midlife crisis, I had a senior moment and this was not the word I intended. I meant that God acts unilaterally.
Harry,
I don't know what I said that you are calling an analogy. You may be mistaking me for another person.
I don't recognize your analagy as fitting for anything I've said either. It is applied emotively and there is no reason that we have to apply that analogy to God, at least according to my theology.
Our legal system, even though created by “Fall Humanity” is so superior to the legal code of the Bible
I'm sure our legal code is better for our society than the Bible's legal code which is not intended for all time but for a certain time and place and has been superceded by Jesus.
And our legal code with volumes upon volumes upon volumes of law would've been completely inept for God's choosen people in the ancient middle east.
As for the rest of your post, I'm sorry but it was pretty horrid. I'm completely unconcerned about whether snakes literally had legs as I don't know that the story was meant to be taken as a moment by moment breakdown of concrete events. So snakes don't eat dust? animals that move along the ground were already created? REally? this is what passes for a biblical inconsistency? Look, I can't even tell why a young earth creationist would have a hard time with this let alone myself who is open to a variety of understandings of the text. But quite frankly I'm not that interested in pursuing it as I get weary of the constant throughing out every biblical problem when the original topic didn't turn out to be so good.
What does this alleged biblical inconsistency have to do with the video which contrasts (ridiculously prooftexted and severed from the more complex scriptural picture) of God's blessings and soverignty along side the terrible brokenness of the world.
Secondary Breckmin,
How do you know (based on what Biblical text) that Satan is bad / evil?
How does you philosophical God (theologically revised as he is) deal with the Biblical term “Satan” especially in the Hebrew Bible?
I want to see how well you know and work with the limits of the Biblical text.
I'm sure our legal code is better for our society than the Bible's legal code which is not intended for all time but for a certain time and place and has been superceded by Jesus.
Oh really?
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matt. 5: 17 - 19)
And
"It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law." (Luke 16:17)
Based on these statements of Jesus:
If the Torah “has been superseded by Jesus”; then when?
Please explain the Christians who Paul considers his opponents in Galatians.
Why then Peter’s Vision in Acts 11?
Finally, why did Paul go before the “Pillars” in Acts 15 if Jesus’ actions and life had already superseded the Torah?
lol @ theodicy.
Fact is, the verses in this video and many others like them in the bible (promises of protection for those who trust in the lord, promises to answer prayer) are predictions and therefore falsifiable.
They have been falsified.
I think the Christian might have a legitimate free-will defense concerning the evil acts committed by nonchristians against other nonchristians or animals ("rebellion"). But the problem of natural evil and the problem of unanswered Christian prayer have never been solved, and never will be.
"Now, here is a simple question that only requires a “yes” or “no”: In Genesis 2: 16 -17, did God lie?"
God does not lie...this would be foolishness to accuse God of lying.
Why would an Infinite All Logically Powerful God ever need to lie? There is NO reason for God to ever lie.
RE: Genesis 2: 17 "muth thmuth" is easily translated "to die you shall die" others have offered a dynamic equivalent of "dying you shall die." It is two-fold of both
immediate spiritual death and eventual physical death.
Death means separation...either from God or from the "body."
Adam and Eve died spiritually immediately the day in which they
ate of the fruit. As a result the human race would suffer the capability of death (separation from the body when the body fails) from old age.
This is not considered a biblical difficulty...but there ARE indeed biblical difficulties that are legitimate.
"How do you know (based on what Biblical text) that Satan is bad / evil?"
Satan is an English word that means adversary. (from the Arabic
derivation). In the Hebrew it meant "the accuser" but in the Tanakh (the book of Job) "e-shtn"
is also clearly translated "the adversary."
We know that Satan is "bad"/evil because of what he does as an accuser (who accuses you of sins that God has forgiven you for) and because he is our enemy or adversary. It is an axiom in Christianity that satan is our enemy and is not difficult to figure out. The New Testament is very clear on this (even Jesus' words to Peter).
"How does you philosophical God (theologically revised as he is) deal with the Biblical term “Satan” especially in the Hebrew Bible?"
The concept of satan from the Tenakh is corroborated by both the pseudopigrapha and other apocryhpal writings such as the Assumption of Moses and the Book of Wisdom. In the pseduopigrapha there are great riches in Enoch 2 and I believe they completely corroborate the Genesis account (clearly with imperfections to be expected), In the Tanakh we see the serpent (not snake) in the garden as well as "the adversary" (e-shten) in Job 1:6-12 for instance.
The devil is not a new concept - even the Jews at Jesus' time referred to Beelzebub (lord of the flies) as the "ruler of the demons."
"But the problem of natural evil"
Logical causes set in motion and we have equivocation of the English word "evil" since ill circumstances or natural disassters are NOT a violation against God's Holy Nature like our sin/evil is.
It is important to understand that God's judgement may look like "evil" to us because we are about to receive something unwanted - but it does NOT mean that God would use the English word "evil" (to define a so called "natural" dissaster). Clarification requires more explanation always, because of the imperfection of the English words that we use with respect to the Infinite Creator ("enemy" is a perfect example).
"..(cont.) and the problem of unanswered Christian prayer have never been solved, and never will be."
No such thing. There are NO unanswered prayers that Christians are left with before they die. Often the answer is just "no, not my will."
I've have never heard a mature Christian believer claim that there are somehow "unanswered prayers."
No, wait (patience) and yes are the answers. "Wait" is often wrongly interpreted by our impatience as a "no."
Breckmin returns with his special pleading. Tell the Haitians digging their loved ones out of rubble that God has told them to wait. Your morality is narcissistic wishful thinking and I can only hope you are confronted with unimaginable suffering so you can apply your linguistic games as a solution to evil.
Thanks Breckmin,
You have fallen into my Christian “God must be good / God needs to be good” trap. I will expect you to support this claim based on the Hebrew of the MT and the Greek of the LXX texts.
Sorry about the late response, but due to time and bussiness matters, I have been away from the computer.
However, rest assured; I’ll respond fully to your poor exegetical beliefs with Biblical facts by Saturday morning at the latest.
STAY TUNED!
Breckmin stated: God does not lie...this would be foolishness to accuse God of lying.
Why would an Infinite All Logically Powerful God ever need to lie? There is NO reason for God to ever lie.
RE: The following are example of your failure to understand neither the Hebrew Bible nor the ture chartacter of God:
In 1 Kings, Yahweh has his 400 prophets lie to Ahab: 6 Then the king of Israel gathered the prophets together, about four hundred men, and said to them, “Shall I go against Ramoth-gilead to battle or shall I refrain?” And they said, “Go up, for the Lord will give it into the hand of the king.” (1 Kings 22: 6)
Jehoshaphat feels God has His prophets lying to Ahab and tells him to send for the prophet Micaiah who again confirms that God is a lair:
19 Micaiah said, “Therefore, hear the word of the LORD. I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left. 20 “The LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said this while another said that. 21 “Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, ‘I will entice him.’ 22 “The LORD said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.’ 23 “Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you.”
(1 Kings 22: 19 – 23)
The Prophet Jeremiah accuses God of being a deceiver and a liar:
10 Then I said, “Ah, Lord GOD! Surely You have utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, ‘You will have peace’; whereas a sword touches the throat.”
Jeremiah 4: 10
And again, he repeats it later:
7 O LORD, You have deceived me and I was deceived; You have overcome me and prevailed. I have become a laughingstock all day long; Everyone mocks me. (Jeremiah 20:7)
In Ezekiel 14: 1-11, God will lie to anyone He fails to like:
…the LORD will answer him by myself: 8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. 10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him; 11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel
7b - 10)
In Genesis 2: 17, God lies when He tells Adam and Eve that the very day they eat of it, they shall surly die and they don’t. (Notice your NISV “dynamic equivalent” avoided the word יום “day”)
Breckmin, apparently you have better morals and ethics then the God you love and worship!
Breckmin stated:
Satan is an English word that means adversary. (from the Arabic
derivation). In the Hebrew it meant "the accuser" but in the Tanakh (the book of Job) "e-shtn"
is also clearly translated "the adversary."
We know that Satan is "bad"/evil because of what he does as an accuser (who accuses you of sins that God has forgiven you for) and because he is our enemy or adversary. It is an axiom in Christianity that satan is our enemy and is not difficult to figure out. The New Testament is very clear on this (even Jesus' words to Peter).
RE: Based on what real hard textual evidence Breckmin?
Here is the real picture of Satan in the Hebrew
Bible:
Satan is called by Jesus a “Liar and the father of all lies”. However, the Bible fails to give one single incident of Satan lying. Even the serpent in the Garden of Eden is depicted as stating the truth while Yahweh lied (The very day you eat of it, you shall die). This serpent in the Garden of Eden has more in common with the medical rod of Asclepius noted for wisdom.
Satan has more morals than God himself as Satan has never murdered defenseless men, women, children, babies and the unborn as God did in the Hebrew Bible. Now, compared to God, Satan has been an angle of love!
Satan was never been hated for what he preached (unlike Jesus whose so-called ministry of love went from zero to death in three years or less)! The statement that Jesus said: “By their fruits you will know them.” Matt. 7:16 - 20 give one proof that Satan’s actions are vindicated while Jesus’ actions definitely are not (Jesus was the “tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire” ( crucified)). It’s funny how a man like Jesus, who is said to have loved all of humanity, ended up hated and killed by the end results of his own so called love (Talk about a moral and ethical contradiction)!
In light of God lying, murdering, and using genocide when he has a temper fit, Satan is by far the lesser evil, if he is evil at all!
The Bible is like an elderly senile citizen who is usually incoherent and out of touch with reality. However, because of the love of her children (the believers) who are driven on by the denial of reality along with some creative ingenuity (theology), she (the bible) is loving taken by the arm and apologetically helped to shuffle along.
Like the Wizard in the Wizard of Oz, the curtain has been pulled back and we find Breckmin working the controls of theology trying to keep his god functioning and up right.
But sadly, Breckmin apparently has better morals and ethics then the God he loves and worships!
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