Hey, Would Someone Please Do Me A Favor on YouTube?
Given the ubiquitousness of animal suffering and pain inflicted upon each other and by human beings, would someone please put some of these images to Louis Armstrong's What a Wonderful World? Or how about from Disney's The Circle of Life? I think it would have its effect. There is no excuse for this world if there exists a perfectly good creator.
45 comments:
So you feel it will be useful to meditate on that so that people can gratify their morbid curiosity or justify persecuting those who have mistreated them in the name of religion??? Nothing new here...
Smart move on your part John in trying to deconvert. Especially for those Calvinists who believe God causes everything that happens. With that type of God in my head awhile back it was very easy to shake my belief in God by showing images of all the suffering in the world. I think this is a very power tool for the atheist. As Alvin Plantinga has stated it's stronger than any argument put forth by any atheist. To read his response see "Warranted Christian Belief"
I've been thinking of many videos that could be done along these lines. Supposed Christians yelping the Battle Hymn of the Republic, together with images of Civil War dead and choice quotations from General Sherman on the desirability of mass killings and plunderings as a means of preserving their true god, the secular state. So many people to expose as murderous hypocrites, so little time...
Manifesting Mini Me (MMM) said..."So you feel it will be useful to meditate on that so that people can gratify their morbid curiosity or justify persecuting those who have mistreated them in the name of religion??? Nothing new here..."
Hi MMM ..So you feel it would be better not to highlight certain problems the might be worth highlighting so more people atleast give it all a little more thought ?.Is thought much more dangerous than lack of thought by your books ?
Nothing new here !,faithful folks have been trying to squash information and thought since promotion of faith began. That they would much rather,simply have kept under wraps of silence, authority and control.
Whether it be information and discussion of matters of priestly abuse.Or matters of the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin or matters of honesty of origin of scripture etc etc
Their very dubious sad answer often seems to be, discourage dicussion that involves questions and promote authority and unreserved blind faith.
Its how Catholic priests got to continue to molest and molest again and again.Its how the Benny Hinns of the world get to continue to fleece the flock.
You much prefer it that way MMM ?
Oy vey..... Gandolf wrote, "Is thought much more dangerous than lack of thought by your books ?"
I honestly don't know how to impress upon you that to me, "books" does not necessarily equate to "God" especially given all the variations in the interpretations. And BTW, Gandolf, why do you think I am involved in all these "books" you keep referring to? Just wondering is all...
Also, it's interesting to hear the meanings that are projected upon the concepts/motives in my writings. I have already stated that I do acknowledge the existence of evil in the world (just like Jesus did) = no need to deny/corrupt reality. I do not condemn or dwell upon it. If I am equipped with the faith to intervene/be an influence away from cruelty/or otherwise confront cruelty, I will do so. If I cannot lift a burden, I hope not to add one.
At any rate, I once used to equate honest acknowledgment with denial/punishment/harsh judgment etc..that association came from human authority - not God. But by faith, I am learning that honest acknowledgment can be the beginning of connecting with God's free spirit. Much better than cooperating with stigmatizing the truth.
At any rate, ttyl,
3M
MMM said.."I honestly don't know how to impress upon you that to me, "books" does not necessarily equate to "God" especially given all the variations in the interpretations. And BTW, Gandolf, why do you think I am involved in all these "books" you keep referring to? Just wondering is all..."
Oppps..So so velly velly solly glasshopper ..My mistakey ! .. it was purely meant as a figure of speech learned in childhood by me here in kiwiland. Books = opinion. :)
MMM said....."Also, it's interesting to hear the meanings that are projected upon the concepts/motives in my writings. I have already stated that I do acknowledge the existence of evil in the world (just like Jesus did) = no need to deny/corrupt reality. I do not condemn or dwell upon it"
Opps sorry MMM.. wasnt meant to offend ..You noticed i put in a question mark?...
I didnt think i was dwelling on things? ...Was that a projection ??... :)
I was just pointing out folks of faith have often tried to stop imformation or people questioning and discussing these things..And suggesting that if all things are actually honest and upfront ...Discussion and you-tube posts shouldnt be any real problem
MMM..."At any rate, I once used to equate honest acknowledgment with denial/punishment/harsh judgment etc..that association came from human authority - not God. But by faith, I am learning that honest acknowledgment can be the beginning of connecting with God's free spirit. Much better than cooperating with stigmatizing the truth."
Well MMM i cant see that non faith belief was the problem ....Honest acknowledgement is honest acknowledgement ...and many folks experience that "denial/punishment/harsh judgment " is often been connected to faith which either way is connected to god/s simply through what humans guess about them ...I for one have experienced this ..The faith i was born into used "punishment/harsh judgement" and split and devided many families causing much heartbreak that even led to quite a number of suicides ...Whats more they still are in "denial" about it to this very day ...You feel this is likely only a one off case ...hmmm? ..need i remind you about...Catholic priestly kid molestors?? ...Westbro Baptist gods hates people ?? ..etc etc
One off case MMM?
MMM here take another hug ..Im not your enemy ...I dont see you as mine either ...Im just being upfront about opinions
You seem worried and offended by what you considder as being "projections"..
Well im not one to dwell on sweating the small stuff.. but i feel everyone could be easily offended and feel its happening.For instance in the thread about do fish feel pain.
I had wrote.."But i still dont enjoy seeing any living being suffering greatly "
Then you wrote.."Hmmmmm....really? then why the internet link you provided?? Sounds like a mixed message to me!"
Do you feel (maybe) you might have been also "projecting" me as being dishonest ??...was it a little "harsh judgment " in "denial" that just because im not faithful doesnt mean im a liar? ...Did you notice you never even added a questionmark ?? ! .
Was it possible your mind was already made up about my honesty?.
You said.."I have already stated that I do acknowledge the existence of evil in the world (just like Jesus did) = no need to deny/corrupt reality. I do not condemn or dwell upon it"
Well do you feel John putting a you-tube up about this problem of animal suffering with regards to continued human faith of god/s,is dwelling on it?...Should John and us others just go hum-hum doesnt effect me anymore ....who cares who else still gets effect by it
Or if faith in god/s is actually false and corrupt ...is it actually a good thing to promote further thought and discussion on the matter ...and actually got little to do with the matter of "dwelling"
Your further thoughts MMM?
Hi Gandolf --- you wrote,
"Oppps..So so velly velly solly glasshopper ..My mistakey ! ."
lol! No offense taken --
You also came back to this,
"Do you feel (maybe) you might have been also "projecting" me as being dishonest ??...was it a little "harsh judgment " in "denial" that just because im not faithful doesnt mean im a liar? ...Did you notice you never even added a questionmark ?? ! ."
I'm glad you mentioned this so I can tell you that I am sorry.I just thought I recognized the symptoms of a fascination of things morbid/sensational, having been on that page myself....so solly glasshopper!
Also, about the issue of accusing and lying -- I hate being wrongfully accused so again, I am sorry.
This is in general and not directed to you, but I do believe it is not uncommon for ppl to lie about their feelings and motives - not consciously, but out of habit, to avoid reproach. There is a saying that I feel is very true --- it goes something like this---
any man that says he isn't a liar, is a liar
I like this because it serves the purpose of challenging ppl who might be tempted to engage in moral conceitedness - I don't think you are that way, Gandolf, but there are others who are tempted to oft their hostility on those they deem inferior in that realm.
You also said,
"Should John and us others just go hum-hum doesnt effect me anymore ....who cares who else still gets effect by it"
I am glad to see that you and John are getting set free from abusive religious practices. Jesus spoke about the types of examples you gave and labeled the ppl involved in these practices as the "sons of hell" -- those would be Satan's closest relatives making God look like a morally conceited, abusive, immature, demanding egomaniac, alienating ppl from Him.
I agree that ppl should intervene when they learn or witness these things, but I differ from you in the approach to take. I don't want to cooperate or perpetuate more of the same cycle anymore. Ppl don't need to build offenses or ego -- they can build a life.
I value your honesty and contrition, Gandolf (the same for Cole and Shane) -- some ppl label themselves Christians but are more like atheists, and there are some who say they are atheists who are more like believers. God looks at our hearts, not the labels we take on in this world.
Take care,
3M
Good plan John, I will make a video tonight to go along with this theme and post it on the RhetoricalBullshit channel.
Thanks for the idea!
"I value your honesty and contrition, Gandolf (the same for Cole and Shane)"
Thanks MMM. I value your honesty as well and I also appreciate you putting up with me while I was deconverting from Calvinism. I'm alot better now not only because I'm no longer a Calvinist but because I got some meds that work!!
The problem doesn't lie with the Creator, it lies with the creature.
Lvka.
You said "the problem does not lie with the creator but with the creation".
Are you simply saying that this is what you believe, or are you asserting this?
If you are asserting this then please prove your comment.
Also, if we look at the biblical account of what happened, it is simple to see that the ultimate blame falls on the creator, it just takes some simple reasoning and common sense.
When the biblical account is
examined under critical scrutiny,
the backwards logic that christian theology tries to implant just doesn't hold up!
Shane,
I don't think it does fall on the Creator. There's more than one way of interpreting Genesis and the Bible. Alot of the time when the text says that God does something it's refering to Him permitting it to happen. I think this may be the case alot of the time with suffering. We often times do it to ourselves or evil forces play a role. I just trust that God will work things together and turn them arround for good. What satan means for evil God turns it arround and uses it for good.
Cole.
I see little difference between causing evil and letting evil happen?
Examine Genesis from a logical point of view (I dont believe a word of it, but for arguments sake I'll point out 2 factors).
-1, God created man knowing ahead of time that He would end up damning millions of His children to a torturous hell for all eternity!
This is no different then a man and women who decide to have a bunch of children knowing that their children will be born into a horribly miserable life.
Who would be to blame here....?....certainly not the children. You would probably hold the parents to blame for their irresponsability.
-2, God created man with a free will along with a serious weakness to temptation, then He places an object of temptation in their midst, and then allows the serpent to come along and tempt them, all this He knew before hand would cause our fall.
Why would He do this....to test them....?...why would an omniscient being need to test them?
Certianly God wouldn't be testing them for their own sake....?....what would that accomplish other then showing them that they failed His test, damned millions of people, and that they stood no chance in the first place because God set it all up just the right way for their downfall!
So you tell me how it is our fault or why I should even believe a loving intelligent God would do even do this?
Shane,
God permitted humans to sin but He wasn't the cause of it. He had morally sufficient reasons for doing so. I don't believe in eternal concious punishment. Rather, God allows man to choose a life apart from Him and they perish. (are destroyed). Humans that perish are responsible for their actions.
Again, God had morally sufficient reasons for permitting the fall of evil forces. Also, noticed that Satan was already in the garden before the fall. So, evil forces were already at work in God's creation before the fall of humans. Again, the evil forces are responsible for their actions and are held accountable for them.
Cole.
No I dont think so Cole, how can you say God wasn't part of cause when He placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the midst of the garden....?
A tree that Had no other purpose but to be a constant temptation.
A tree that was tantalizing to the eye's but would condemn if eaten?
Shane,
Humans chose to rebel. God didn't force them to. He permitted it to happen (for morally sufficient reasons) just as He permitted the other evil angels to rebel when He removed His hand of grace from their hearts. They are responsible for their evil deeds and are held accountable. He let them act according to their own wills. That's the way I see it. Again, God doesn't take joy in suffering and evil in and of itself. When such things happen He is in one sense grieved. But because He can see all of reality and the good He will bring out of it He is pleased. His emotional life is infinitely complex and cannot be completely grasped by our finite and limited minds. I have a confindent trust that He will work all things together and turn them arround for good.
Cole.
Lol....whether or not humans choose to rebel is beside the point.
God still gave them the means by which they could rebel, He still placed the tree there for no other purpose but to INSIGHT THEIR REBELLION!
Cole....what possible morally sufficient reason is there for people burning and screaming in the fires of hell for an infinite length of time????
You said "God takes no pleasure in suffering and evil in and of itself"
Then why does God say in the OT- "I delight in the smell of your burnt offerings"?
Shane,
Like I said already I don't believe in eternal concious punishment. What OT scripture are you referring to? Is it talking about the burnt offerings of dead animals? Dead animals don't feel any pain. I don't think God was taking pleasure in the suffering of the animals. Just as God didn't take delight in the suffering of His innocent Son in and of itself. Rather He saw ahead in what Christ was going to accomplish through His death and resurrection and delighted in that.
Cole.
You dont believe in concious eternal suffering? I dont understand what you mean, this concept is a central theme in the NT?
Yes the scripture is about dead animals.
The dead animal may not feel pain after its dead, but im sure it felt pain while dying!
And it was God who commanded the death and sacrifice of these animals as atonement for sin.
And it was God who said He delighted in the smell of its burning carcass!
I can get the scripture reference if you want?
Just a note, I often wondered why an all powerful being who can do all things had to choose such a morbid and terrible way to save us (Christs sacrifice)?
MMM said..."I'm glad you mentioned this so I can tell you that I am sorry.I just thought I recognized the symptoms of a fascination of things morbid/sensational, having been on that page myself....so solly glasshopper!
Also, about the issue of accusing and lying -- I hate being wrongfully accused so again, I am sorry."
Ahh MMM. i had already forgiven it, before i even made mention of the matter.I merely mentioned it as discussion,so we might get some better understanding between us.
No harm done.
Speaking for myself i dont often care about being wrongfully accused of much.Im used to being accused of many things,including being accused of being immoral, by my fundamentalist family,which caused total excommunication and separation, meaning i have only been able to see my very own mother just the one time,in round about the last 32years .
Its just the way the cookie crumbles in life sometimes.Many things i find are very random,folks are not always born equal and there is no real promisses of what you`ll get.All you can really do is try your best to make life what you can...Its for this reason i dont have such harsh feeling against people,including some who become criminals.Personally i doubt many are actually born crims.Neither are many people with sheltered easy lives, born arrogant and ignorant without understanding of others not so like them.We often tend to be a little like vegtables growing in the vedge patch,growth depends a awful lot on what type of fertilizer we happen to find with our roots .
So no,these days mostly im over hating what people simply call me..Why should i stress, if its bull?
No i have real things that are much more worthy of worring about.Such as discussing these matters of faith abuse etc,not as revenge or to bitch and moan for pity for myself.Pity changes nothing i cannot change life thats past....No my reason is that i hope if i can do at least one real worth while thing with life ..It could be spending time discussing these matters, in hope that change happens so in future others have no need of experiencing some of the same things i did.
I dont blame you for thinking maybe me and other /agnostics/atheists real motives might be devilish.As its a old propaganda associated stigma, thats long time been applyed to all humans who are without superstitious faith.
All the best MMM !
Gandolf.
Shane,
I like the way turky smells when it's being cooked. :) Besides, you missed my point. Go back and reread it. I think that one of the things Christ was doing on the cross was removing God's wrath from our vision so we could see His spiritual beauty. Because Christ has removed that image from my vision I can see and savor His beauty. A pradigm shift was taking place. God allowed evil men to have their way with Christ and in doing so He removed His wrath. I think God was also showing us at the cross that the worst evil ever done can be turned arround by God and used for good. It grieved God to see His innocent Son suffer at the hands of evil men. But He was also pleased because He could see ahead in what it was going to accomplish. Again, God's emotional life is infinitely complex and cannot be completely grasped by our finite and limited minds.
By Cole's own admission he is a mentally disturbed person. I recommend ignoring him. I have been listening to him rant on about this and that for about three years commenting on every post of mine lately as if he can.
Cole, please go away. I've had enough from you. You waste space here. Let someone more informed comment. Read what others say from now on. Learn. You don't really have much to teach.
Sorry, but when I moderate comments yours will not be posted, which means I'm banning you. Please abide by my wishes even if I'm not moderating comments. Again, let more informed people comment. Learn from them. You have defended opposing viewpoints back and forth and back again with no consistency depending on whether or not you are on your medications. Stay away from commenting from now on, please.
Manifesting Mini, while you are not in the same condition that Cole is in, the same goes for you. I'll not be approving any comments from you from now on either for some of the same reasons.
Now I'll start moderating comments again.
Cheers.
Cole.
Is God a being who would have physical hungers and feel physically stimulated by the smell of burning meat?
You dont have to explian the concepts of Jesus sacrifice to me, I was a believer for quite some time, I was involved in evangelical street outreaches so I used to tell people the same types of things you are.
But when I look at the bible as a whole, not just what the gospels tell us, I just dont see it the same way you do anymore!
The reason why I'm banning MMM and Cole is because I'd like to leave room for more informed Christians to comment. I have heard from a number of them over the years who wanted to comment but by the time they arrived here the discussion had been derailed by uninformed Christians like MMM and Cole. Lyka is another one I'm placing on notice.
I'm going to have an informed discussion with people who know what they are talking about on both sides of the fence, or none at all. If you would just wait, there are more informed Christians who would comment whom you could learn from. So do so. You can learn from them, that's what I'm saying.
It's in my comment policy.
Cheers.
John.
My apologies if I got too far off the original post, I like arguing with believers too much, I get carried away!
I'll try to keep it closer to topic.
Shane, it's hard not to do that when the level of Christian comments are made by people who should be sitting on the sidelines but who step into the ring without much knowledge.
Hey John, I took it upon myself to make a video, here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ko1uYqbHvs
Hope it's what you were looking for.
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John,
can you ponder the possibility that this animal suffering exists not only because of "choices" made by individuals who inflict such suffering, but also because the suffering is "generally" intended to teach us something in a temporary creation?
Also, we can not isolate on these points alone. The savagery of death teaches us about "consequences" which are permanent. In addition to this
there is the necessity of pain to tell us (and all other species)when something is drastically wrong with our bodies. The suffering is temporary and there are logical "causes" for each individual suffering. We can not only look at nerve endings and communication with the brain but we can also look at a progressive system that provides interaction (and food) for human kind (who is created in God's Image). Clearly God needs no "excuse" if He alone "owns" the universe and I understand that you are questioning this reality...but can you at least see the "possibility" that things are the way in which they are because of God's omniscience regarding what human kind would choose and therefore the system we now live in is cursed as a result of immoral choices (of humans)?
Someone mentioned "a lion will lay down with a lamb" and that this is God's optimal plan once human choice has been dealt with and judged.
If animals eating other animals are somehow related to human kind's relationship to God - Does this change anything?
Well, there is one thing to say in defence of the omni-god :
He made it impossible for sentient beings other than ourselves to read the expressed thoughts of people like Cole and MMM, and in that there lies a great, immeasurable mercy.
Hey the video is great. Thanks!
Can you ban Breckmin too? His special pleading is annoying.
What backward logic, Cole? That creatures have a mind and a will of their own?
Lvka.
Cole has been banned to my knowledge, that comment was from my post, I dont need to explain it again since I explained it in my 8:01 PM post
John, I've never experienced being banned before - somehow, I have a sense of notoriety associated with this state of being.
At any rate, thanks for your past compliance with posting my comments. Just wanted to say that I wish I could be impressed by theology/philosophy, but I simply am not. That realm belongs to the ones who truly enjoy it.
Before I go, I ask one favor - to let Gandolf and Shane (and Chuck and the others) know that I enjoyed conversing with them here.
As you say,
cheers!
3M
MMM I don't like banning you or Cole or anyone. Tell ya what, you cannot possibly answer every post of mine. Try to pick your battles where you have some level of expertise. You just seem to me to be a bad Karoake singer who thinks he can sing. Just keep your comments to a minimum. Let other Christians chime in. You can learn from them, that's all I ask.
Psst... he's a she. Never mind, I could have said that better.
Anyway, I like having her and others around, and I agree we should pick our battles also.
Speaking (only!) for myself, I imagine I've always gotten a free ride because I'm tolerated as the occasional "dumb, but nice" poster.
John wrote, "You just seem to me to be a bad Karoake singer who thinks he can sing."
Well, never having done karoake before, I can only imagine that I would be horrible at it, but unlike your characterization of me, I am more than willing to confess my inabilities when I am disabled.
Which brings me to this -- I don't intend to put you in a position where you feel you have to ban or police me - But, I also want to say that I do have firsthand personal background to know what it is like to have believed and experienced spirituality as a an idolotor and also to have travelled into atheism. As I've said before, I'm grateful for that period of atheism because it helped to detox me from some of the perspectives I held of power and authority that were ungodly.
At any rate,
take care,
3M
"His special pleading is annoying."
Special pleading is allowed when "justified." If you can justify the difference between an Infinite Creator and finite created beings then it is completely logical to discuss not only logical ownership of things created in the universe by such Infinite Creator, but also see the clear difference in relationship to the Law (and the Trascendent LawGiver Whom it is indeed foolish to apply the actions of finite beings and His Plan for them to Himself).
Bottom line: There is special pleading that is justifiable.
ismellarat said... "Psst... he's a she. Never mind, I could have said that better.
Anyway, I like having her and others around, and I agree we should pick our battles also.
Speaking (only!) for myself, I imagine I've always gotten a free ride because I'm tolerated as the occasional "dumb, but nice" poster."
Cant help feeling i need to admit,most likely i need to share some of the same Ismellarat.
Except maybe without the occasional poster bit. :(
Infact maybe im also somewhat to blame for posting to much, and then getting folks like MMM and Cole and even Brecky into some strife .
Im going to try and refrain from posting quite so much myself.But i`ll just say i do it because i find i really like many folks who post on this blog, very much.
Thanks John for being fair and giving folks a real chance,i think you have! really proved you do try to do that.I do understand we all have many pressures around us,and understand this blog also takes your time to moderate etc.Once again thanks a lot!,to let you know it really is appreciated .Reminding you its appreciated is most likely something i dont remember to do quite enough.
Im so glad you dont ever seem to just get rid of folks after they make a pain of themselves a few times .As that type reaction would just remind me too much of the fundy christian cult i left, that slammed folks with total excommunication, with a law that seemed a lot like, two or three strikes and your out!.
Breck said,
"Bottom line: There is special pleading that is justifiable."
And here we see the selective honesty that Christianity demands.
Breck, why don't you admit your arguments stink. Your reliance on special pleading and your admission of it show that you like to cheat when it comes to logic.
Oh come on Mr. Loftus! I guess non-Christians just cannot grasp this concept of an perfect world tainted by sin. But that's fine, because a little Sunday school lesson is fun now and then, right? :)
The world was was created perfect (refer to the "...and it was good" comments throughout Genesis) originally. He gave his creation, us, the option of choosing to obey fully and live a perfect life without suffering, death, and pain, or to choose to sin against Him, letting sin, and consequently pain, death and suffering, enter the world ("For the waged of sin is death").
I think y'all know which option Adam and Eve (and each one of us) chose. What I'm getting at, is God didn't create a world where animals were slaughtered, humans are tortured, and kids starve to death. In fact, in the world he created, Adam and Eve were vegetarians! Not until they sinned did he sacrifice the first animal (you see, Adam and Eve sinned, so they should have paid the price of death) and use its skin as clothing.
This is why in the Old Testament they were required to sacrifice animals. It was the due payment for their sins. This wouldn't have happened in the perfect world God created. Now, since Jesus's death, He is our sacrifice. He took the payment for our sin. Just like the pure lamb sacrificed in the OT, Christ was the sinless sacrifice for all of us. It wasn't pleasant for the Father, but He loved his creation, so it was necessary. All we have to do is accept that sacrifice to pay for our sins. Else, we have to pay the price of death ourselves.
So what I guess I'm getting at, is that a video of death and suffering doesn't prove anything. Yeah, we all know it's happening. But to say that you can't have a loving God because of it is false. That's not what He created. He intended for a perfect world. We chose this wretched state of human pain suffering. Any thinking Christian realizes this, and isn't that what you are all about? Free thinking?
Hope this helps explain some confusing aspects of the tenets of Christianity!
Logan Rector, so, you think Adam and Eve's test in the garden was legitimate eh? Hmmmmm.
Logan Rector,
Many of us who are atheists once believed the silly mythology you just professed until we applied reason and saw how it is rife with logical fallacies.
We evolved. You should too.
One benefit will be that you will have the awareness that your arrogant preachifying will fall on the deaf ears of a choir that has moved on to sing a new tune.
Logan, although unlike many here I hope to wake up somewhere after I die and to be able to say "this makes perfect sense," I just don't get what you're saying.
You describe a situation akin to someone poisoning someone's food and then holding themselves blameless, because they're not the ones who chose to eat it, after all.
And what's worse is that many innocent, uninvolved beings have to suffer also.
If we truly "send ourselves," and never end up where we don't really want to be, as is currently fashionable to say, why didn't we all just get issued survey cards, simply asking if an eternity with Satan would appeal to us, instead of going through this bloody, ambiguous existence that's leaving everyone guessing?
"It wasn't pleasant for the Father, but He loved his creation, so it was necessary."
I hear that a lot, in many other contexts, and I never did get it, even back in my fundy days.
Our omnipotent God "had" to do something. Or, our omniscient God didn't anticipate such a situation developing, when I dare say even I could have guessed it. Why weren't Satan, the snake, and any other undesirable influences put on Jupiter, instead of on Earth, where they could corrupt us.
It always sounded as if it's being implied that some greater god is twisting his arm.
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