"John, I'm Scared to Doubt Because I Might Go to Hell"
Someone recently wrote this to me. At one time I too was scared to doubt. But I was never scared of Allah's threat of hell. In fact, I never gave it a thought. Why are people scared of the Christian hell when they have never been scared of the Muslim hell? When Muslims leave their faith they are just as scared of Allah's hell as Christians seem to be about Yahweh's hell. If Christians are not scared of Allah's hell then they should not be scared of Yahweh's hell. Both conceptions of hell are culturally inherited beliefs.
21 comments:
I suppose that a part of the problem stems from the deity that does not allow freedom of religion, does not allow free speech, does not allow rational enquiry - any doubt is A Bad Thing, worthy of eternal damnation. Ah, the God of Love.
Got to love him. Literally.
The threat of hell is in my view the most odious, criminal legacy of the cult of Christianity. I have so much sympathy for people caught in this most immoral of sales gimmicks. Good luck to them in their long walk back to freedom.
EFH -
I think I am misunderstanding you - are you asking what remains to us after we walk away from the fairy tales? The old existential issues?
If so - a lot, like truth, beauty, science, the love of your friends and family, good work, prosperity, living ethically, helping others, creativity = generally a potential life filled with integrity.
But as I say, I may have misunderstood you there.
The pillar that propelled me forward (pretty tortured metaphor there Expat) was when a friend questioned my Christianity with this; "Has anyone ever positioned Heaven and Hell as anything more than a carrot or a stick?" And the scales fell from my eyes. I wasn't immediately an atheist but realized that my whole experience with Christianity was nothing more than a well-designed and passive-aggressive fear-appeal with encouraging group-think as the end-benefit. I realized my fears ended when I decided they weren't real and the people asserting that they were could not be trusted as authorities.
I'm glad to see people starting to doubt these horrible and primitive mythologies, and I'm thankful that my parents never indoctrinated me when I was young.
I like this article over at why wont god heal amputees:
Understanding Terror
This was the same dilemma I had for the longest time before I left those belief's behind.
It was the fear of hell that tortured me even while I was a gung ho believer, worrying about my loved one's if they would make to heaven or not, worrying whether or not I was doing everything right, never making a decision unless I thought it was what God wanted I was too afraid I would find myself outside of His will, and therefore outside of His grace.
This fear can be a torturous thing, causing mental anguish and emotional grief more then anything I've ever known!
Well said Shane.
Why would an omniscient, all-powerful being be focused on an objective that I would consider immature and unwise.
Eeks. Strikes close to home. I've been in the midst of a 're-evaluation' since Christmas (ironic). Intellectually/factually, I'd say I have approximately no reasons to suspect Christianity is true. I've not been convinced by the reasons that do exist when compared to all the issues that also exist if it were to be true.
However... I cannot quite explain the emotional 'handcuffs' I feel constantly. Like a little voice constantly asking, 'But what if it's true??' I would want to know if it is true! I mean that. My 'quest' was for the truth -- no matter what.
But at this point, there are so many objections to it's truth that I can't even imagine believing anymore but keep on, perhaps in vain, wondering if it is somehow.
I would extend this from just including hell to including all irrational fear of walking away and being wrong. I don't worry about hell so much as I keep getting mindfu*$ed by wondering:
- what if he really does value faith more than evidence-based-belief?
- how does matter create consciousness?
- how did the world begin?
- what if there is a morally sufficient reason for the PoE?
- blah blah blah
Not that any of these are convincing... but I feel irrationally heckled by myself and can't alway explain why.
In a recent email with a believer who's been 'working on me', I stated it like this when he asked what my current 'disposition' was: "How I got here, I'm not sure, but I would describe my current disposition as looking to disprove Christianity to the degree necessary to walk away in peace. In other words, my disposition against it seeks an emotional satisfaction with my efforts, dialogs, and research in order to be at peace with my decision to reject it. At present, I am 'looking back over my shoulder' and wondering if I missed something earth shattering and keep not finding it."
If you are scared to doubt, it is too late. You already do. God doesn't allow for that.
Once again, some kind christian words from over 40.
This is the kind of mentality I spit on!
What are you trying to say over 40, that your God is so unreasonable that once you doubt that it game over?
This is the mercy that endureth forever?
This is how I know your faith is BS, because a creator would not give of functions of logic and reason, and then expect us to believe something like the bible without ever having doubts.
Also, you contradict your own faith, the disciple Thomas had doubts remember, he even had to put his finger through Jesus hand.
Where is Thomas in hell?
The difference is that in Christianity, the God of Abraham is a God of "grace"/"mercy" when you TRUST in Him. He God/Allah (the Infinite Creator) becomes a Man (Jesus/Isa) and gives Himself as a Perfect Sacrifice for sins to "save" you from somthing real - eternal separation from God's Glory and Fellowship because of "multiple connected premises" which can not be isolated on (God's Nature, the eternal state of Man created in God's Image, the nature of sin/evil choices themselves, the necessity of justice and payment, etc etc).
Historically, both Islam and Christianity get their concept of a place of punishment from Abraham.
There is nothing wrong with a Muslim becoming a born-again Christian and believing that Allah has a Son (or became a Man) named Isa. The Qu'ran does NOT have a monopoly on the definition of Allah
and many evangelical Christians have wrongfully been led astray on this point because the Qu'ran says that Allah has no Son. Arabic Christians have no trouble believing that Allah and Yaweh are the same God of Abraham. As long as you believe that Allah is the Infinite Creator and the God of Abraham and that He became Isa or that Isa is Allah's Only Begotton Son then you can use these Arabic words.
The hell is the same concept...except that Christianity has legitimate reasons for God judging you perfectly for your specific decisions.
If Allah becomes a Man (Jesus) and dies in your place and provides the
Perfect Sacrifice for your sins then you have a God/Creator of Mercy. Q.E.
Being scared of being punished for your sins is a wise thing. It is based on the knowledge that you know you have made bad decisions.
By making what you know have been bad decisions your logical conclusion is that you have "objective guilt." Not the feeling of guilty but rather the knowledge that you have done something wrong and that you are objectively guilty of breaking the Creator's Law/Standard.
If you know that you have objective guilt of the Law then it is wise to be afraid/scared (terrified would be more logical)of the possibility of being eternally separated from God's glory if you know that God demands Perfection. The only place you can get moral Perfection is through Jesus and His Giving of His Morally Perfect Life. QE
Has anyone heard about a surgen named Dr. Maurice S. Rawlings .He wrote a book called to hell and back.Its about his experience of NDEs ..near death experiences of some of his patients.Think the story goes he was once a atheist until certain stuff happened in his job that changed his mind.
Im finding this stuff interesting to study more at present.I think its very interesting but im not about to allow myself to be bullied anymore simply by fear.I know that fear is a key part of a tactic many faiths use.And well people didnt choose for ancestors to create a fall that created sin or what ever,and people dont even choose to be born...So the idea of being punished for many things out people control seems idiotic and unlikely unless a creator be mean and nasty.
And with as many NDE that include some sense of fire and hell etc,there has been many more that have suggested a sense of peace and happiness etc that had them not wanting to return to life.So im picking most likely its got a lot to do with existing "thoughts" and brain wave signals or whatever they be,thats inclosed and existing in our minds.For instance if you have been subjected to ideas of fire and brimstone your mind might harbour some firey thoughts.And the opposite if you havent been subjected to these things in life.
Fear seems to be something most humans have.Take fear of the dark and kids fear of the monster living under the bed.
Just wondering if anyone else finds this stuff a little interesting and if anyone knows of any real good non biased science type studys that have been done on the subject?.
As I keep pointing out, god does us a favor when he sends us to hell: Hell shows that our earthly lives had meaning after all.
Of course, christians tend to respond that they don't want that meaning for their lives. They want the other one involving heaven.
To gandolf, you said:
"So im picking most likely its got a lot to do with existing "thoughts" and brain wave signals or whatever they be,thats inclosed and existing in our minds.For instance if you have been subjected to ideas of fire and brimstone your mind might harbour some firey thoughts.And the opposite if you havent been subjected to these things in life."
That's the reason I do not trust people's experience with NDE's.
Most every person living in US has been primed with the notions of a heaven and a hell. And I'm sure the good doctor never asked them previously before their NDE if they had heard of a heaven of hell before the experience.
My sister believes in NDE's, because it endorses her beliefs and she wants so much to believe a heaven and hell to exist.
I believe the doctor is biased in that study, because he too wants heaven and hell to exist and if he was an atheist before the study, he was an uninformed atheist as so many people are uninformed.
Spend eternity groveling & praising an egocentric petty dictator of a deity under constant threat?
If thats heaven, I'll take hell.
Steven Bently said..."I believe the doctor is biased in that study, because he too wants heaven and hell to exist and if he was an atheist before the study, he was an uninformed atheist as so many people are uninformed."
Cheers thanks for the discussion Steve.Its just so hard to know what to believe and not believe.I do tend to have what i feel is a healthy mistrust of many folks of faith.Is that so surprising after my own experience,as well as all the other fraudulent faithful i see getting exposed.Combine that with all the obvious faith frauds used right down through history,such as sacrifice of humans and animals for suggested faith ideas of supposedly ending famine or sickness or fending off such things as earthquakes and killer lightning bolts or whatever.
I think my distrust is been well proved, to (in the least) be well merited.History HAS well proved how dangerous faith really can be.History has NOT yet proved how dangerous the lack of faith might be.
I read up a bit about that surgen.Cant remember where now,but somewhere i saw it suggested that a blind man had a NDE or out of body experience in surgery and managed to see the colour of the surgens shirt and relayed that imformation back...Sounds amazing ...But hold on ...how did the blind man know colours?...only way is if he wasnt always blind i suppose.
Ahh dear ..who to believe???...To many folks willing to take pascal wager...even lie for Jesus ...feel nothing to lose
Seems to me if hell was a fact proved these ways....Scientists and surgens would be all over the news doing the good gods will ...and passing the message on ...After all ...Should be hell coming in future for them if they didnt right?.
For any folks interested in this stuff...heres another rather very different type of view of the subject .. http://www.near-death.com/about.html
"Spend eternity groveling & praising an egocentric petty dictator of a deity under constant threat?
If thats heaven, I'll take hell."
What you do not appear to understand is that Christians CHOOSE to worship God. They do so because the "love" God. They WANT to Thank Him for saving them from their bad decisions (and the consequences of their bad decisions).
They know they have objective 'guilt' with respect to the perfect law of God and therefore they know they need to be forgiven.
Spending eternity loving and in fellowship with each other..and with their Savior. Choosing to glorify God and having the freedom from sin/evil to be able to always do it. Enjoying things so incredible you can't imagine.
I "choose" to worship God. God does NOT make me do it...that would be foolishness.
It is by God's grace that He has opened by eyes to the glory of the gospel of Christ. I didn't choose His grace to me...but I DO choose what to do once I am spiritually regenerated.
Your view of God is far too small and you expect too little from Him... that is why you incorrectly conclude that the Infinite Perfect Creator is somehow "petty."
A dictator is not capable of working all things together for the good of His adopted children...and a dictator does not own everything in the universe or sustain every single electron orbital.
There are a logical set of reasons for every illogical thing you believe about the Infinite Creator.
Question why. (as well as unpractical technicality which would fail to understand the prior statement).
Mark Plus writes,
"As I keep pointing out, god does us a favor when he sends us to hell: Hell shows that our earthly lives had meaning after all."
How is it a favor when we're only shown our lives had meaning once we're locked into eternal suffering for eternity? Once you're in hell, what's the point of having our eyes opened to anything? We can't warn others, we can't grow. Makes no sense.
@magnumdb:
How is it a favor when we're only shown our lives had meaning once we're locked into eternal suffering for eternity? Once you're in hell, what's the point of having our eyes opened to anything? We can't warn others, we can't grow. Makes no sense.
I didn't say it had to make sense. Christians just seem hung up on the idea that the nonexistence of an afterlife somehow deprives this life of "meaning." Well, how badly do they want that meaning? Given their own world view, wouldn't an eternal afterlife in hell satisfy their desire of meaning? It would certainly show that their god provided for them instead of abandoning them to oblivion or meaninglessness.
Post a Comment