With Thinking Skills Like These No Wonder You Believe

In a recent post I had written this sentence: "Joe, my goal is to change the minds of one person at a time, alone as they read my book." Then a Christian named Neal responded: "Man, your opinion of yourself is quite deluded. The idea that after Hume, Nietzsche, Comte, Marx, Engels, Popper, Russell, Sartre, Schopenhauer, Ayer, Chomski, and the list could be multiplied on and on now suddenly a second-rate atheologian like John Loftus has the arguments that will demolish Christianity once and for all is more than just hubris, it is outright self-deluded narcissism. Your estimation of your own abilities is quite exaggerated."

Does anyone know what a non-sequitur is? Neal's response is one.

[Edit: Here is the link].

Nothing of what Neal wrote follows from what I had written--nothing [Edit: and this means anything I said in that post or anything I have ever written about myself]. It does not follow from what I said that I think I am superior to anyone at all. I'm just saying what my goal is, to change one mind at a time.

Neal, no wonder you believe. You cannot logically connect the dots nor make sound judgments. The thinking skills exhibited here are the same ones you use to evaluate your faith. You do not have them. You must therefore take seriously my claim that you believe what you prefer to believe.

Earlier Neal constructed several arguments he attributed to me concerning animal suffering, but none of them represented my argument or were even close.

Again, Neal, you cannot think critically. That being demonstrated in this case means you should take seriously my claim that you believe because you prefer to believe.

So many other Christians who believe exhibit the same lack of critical thinking skills. So here's my challenge: First demonstrate you have the needed critical thinking skills. Then and only then will I consider the possibility you do not believe merely because you prefer to believe.

Cheers

29 comments:

Unknown said...

While I'm all for "Debunking Christianity" I wonder why I never see any "Debunking Islam" or even "Debunking Judaism" sections.

Christianity takes such a beating, and I fear all that we are doing is pushing the faithful flock to another shepherd.

I think the focus should be on religion as a whole, as a crutch or as a control mechanism, and how all the religions of the world fit under the same umbrella.

Picking on one religion in particular likely only strengthens another for a tougher fight down the road.

goprairie said...

In that Christianity is a layer upon Judaism and Islam relies on Christianity for its own added layer, debunking the old testament takes care of Judaism and debunking Christianity takes care of Ismam's foundation. I don't think that when you disprove Jesus's divinity or creationism or prayer or miracles, you are pushing anyone into another fairy tale religion. I doubt there is any statistical factual basis for the concept.
We debunk what we know. Most here were Christians in some form or another and we know what we believed and what caused us to stop. It is what we know.
And the threat to our liberty is not coming from Judaism or even Islam right now. It is coming from the Christiain fundamentalists. They are the ones trying to sneak prayer and creationism teaching into schools, they are the ones trying to take health care choices away from women, they are the ones sneaking laws in that discriminate against homosexuals, and so on. Once I see a Muslim telling me that gay marriage is a bad thing because of their religion, I will target them for some debunking as well.

Hos said...

Jacob: I agree with more stuff on other religions. But have you read "why I am not a Muslim" by Ibn Warraq? Or does it ring a bell?
As for John: sorry to disappoint you, but even in nations where very few still go to church, even fewer have consciously gone over all arguments for and against and decided to sleep in Sundays. It is simpler than that: as soon as people are not one layoff away from going hungry or one serious illness from sleeping under bridges, religion fades away like magic. This has been the subject of a good number of studies for years. There isn't much doubt about it any longer.

Neal said...

John, let's review how this went down:

Joe said in response to your post gloating about a positive review of your book:

"This is just pathetic. Not the endorsement, but your gloating over it. I know of NO author who would post something like this on his blog. Get some humility and maybe the "community" will take you seriously. You're dangerously coming across like a person driven more by narciscism rather than truth."

You then replied with the following:

"Joe, my goal is to change the minds of one person at a time, alone as they read my book."

How exactly does this answer follow what Joe said? Can we say "non-sequitur"? By your own standards, you can't think. The thinking skills exhibited here are the same ones you use to evaluate your atheism. You do not have them. You must therefore take seriously your claim that you believe what you prefer to believe. It is difficult to interpret this answer as anything close to answering what Joe said, unless one infers that somehow, your book provides the answers that will change people's minds whereas others have failed. Perhaps I overstated it, which I will happily concede. But are we really to take seriously that someone who calls his site "Debunking Christianity" somehow doesn't believe he has arguments that demolish Christianity?

That the whole posting was all about you is pretty hard to refute. You even stated in the original post "to hell with humility, that's a Christian virtue"

So I think it is pretty well established that you are a self-absorbed egotist who likes to toot your own horn. My comment was in the context of that thread, that context which you totally ripped it from here. I find it amusing that you would take a comment that skewers your ego and make it the topic of blog post. Are you really that insecure that you can't take a little ribbing to your ego?

"Earlier Neal constructed several arguments he attributed to me concerning animal suffering, but none of them represented my argument or were even close."

But you never bothered to explain exactly how you were being misrepresented either.

Chuck said...

Jacob,

John debunks christianity because he has an insider perspective on the faith and made the realization that what he had committed to was harmful.

If you want to read good "inside/out" debunking of Islam I recommend Ayan Hirsi Ali or Ibn Warriq.

John, Neal's response to you is classic contemporary christian bullying. It is pretty common and seen when the faithful feel cognitive dissonance tied to their willful ignorance. They lash out as a means of guarding themselves from their own shame. I'm sure he will feel "convicted" due to his psychological discomfort with anger later and come to be certain that this feeling is guilt wrought by sin. And the whole crazy mess will start all over again.

Fordi said...

Not to mention, the ridiculous ancestor worship that Neal's post implies: "great people in the past couldn't X, therefore you can't X"

Sorry, I forgot; progress is impossible, because famous past individuals are so much smarter than we are now.

Neal said...

"John, Neal's response to you is classic contemporary christian bullying. It is pretty common and seen when the faithful feel cognitive dissonance tied to their willful ignorance. They lash out as a means of guarding themselves from their own shame. I'm sure he will feel "convicted" due to his psychological discomfort with anger later and come to be certain that this feeling is guilt wrought by sin. And the whole crazy mess will start all over again."

LOL! Chuck, you are projecting.

Anonymous said...

Jacob, think about this if you would. As is more often the case than not, once a person rejects his culturally given faith he usually rejects all of the other ones for the same reasons. Read the Sam Harris quote on this same page posted a few days ago.

Anonymous said...

Neal, no I didn't explain why your constructions of my argument were wrong. I didn't have to. They were obviously wrongheaded. I did say what my argument was, now didn't I?

So in defense Neal punts to the humour defense, "I was only joking/ribbing."

I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard that defense after showing someone wrong.

Anonymous said...

Neal there is no way you will ever listen to me but you are typical of a person who is best described as ignorant and unaware of it.

Cheers.

How old are you and what grade are you in?

Chuck said...

Neal,

How can I be projecting when I don't believe in sin nor consider christian faith viable?

No, I just know too many folks like you who try to beat up former christians as a defense of their faith.

You don't like John (probably because he used to be a christian like you but now sees that whole mess as silly superstition).

Projection is a psychological phenomenon where one making assertion in judgement of another is actually revealing their own bias.

Since I don't feel guilt about my disdain for you, I don't see how I am practicing projection.

Neal said...

"Not to mention, the ridiculous ancestor worship that Neal's post implies: "great people in the past couldn't X, therefore you can't X"

I wasn't implying that at all. I was noting that much better atheists than John have not succeeded. Nothing more is implied.

Neal said...

John, who said I was joking? I really do think you are a self-absorbed blow-hard. If you could get over yourself for 5 seconds maybe you'd actually offer more substance than dismissing people with retorts that they are ignorant. Calling someone ignorant is not an argument.

"Neal there is no way you will ever listen to me but you are typical of a person who is best described as ignorant and unaware of it."

That's rich coming from someone who thinks he is the debunker of Christianity. Have you ever once stopped to seriously consider how you yourself might be one of those who is unaware of his own ignorance?

Chuck said...

Neal,

Does John promote himself as "The" debunker or "A" debunker.

Your cognitive dissonance is showing again.

Neal said...

"No, I just know too many folks like you who try to beat up former christians as a defense of their faith."

Sorry, but I'm not the agressor here. John is the one who setup a web site called "Debunking Christianity". I'm just responding to him.

"You don't like John (probably because he used to be a christian like you but now sees that whole mess as silly superstition)."

Stop with the psychologizing already. For all I know he might be a nice guy in person. I'm responding to his attacks on the Christian faith.

"Projection is a psychological phenomenon where one making assertion in judgement of another is actually revealing their own bias."

Go back and read what you wrote then.

Tony Hoffman said...

I prefer to have commenters who demonstrate an inability to think critically remain on the theist side; I think it would hurt the atheist position to have those who are clearly muddled thinkers agree with us.

If you can demonstrate an ability to think clearly and critically, consider arguments, and try to get towards the truth with a modicum of humility and honesty, then it makes me feel a heck of a lot better when come to the same conclusions, and vice versa.

Neal said...

"Does John promote himself as "The" debunker or "A" debunker."

Does it make a difference? Does it matter than John has apparently made it his mission in life to debunk Christianity?

Chuck said...

Neal,

You said, "Stop with the psychologizing already. For all I know he might be a nice guy in person. I'm responding to his attacks on the Christian faith."

Thanks for making my point.

Chuck said...

Neal,

What do you care if, "John has apparently made it his mission in life to debunk Christianity?"

I never understood this type of defensive when I was a "believer" and find it comical now.

You assert that you have a personal relationship with the most powerful being in the entire universe who also happens to live inside of you at the same time yet get mad when John says that reltionship doesn't exist.

How strong is that relationship?

I have a great relationship with my son and my wife but if someone put up a blog that said "Debunking Chuck's Marriage and Fatherhood" I'd simply laugh and say whatever.

My "psychologizing" is this, if you really have the kind of personal relationship Christians claim then you would simply see our denial of your relationship as comical because it is so absurd.

My observation is that your anger and insult stem from cognitive dissonance tied to a semi-conscious understanding that your faith commitment is not as real as you assert. You transfer the shame you feel for that half-aware realization to resentment towards those provoking more full awareness and lash out.

If you told me my wife and child didn't exist I'd simply say, "whatever" but when we say your relationship to Jesus is not real you get angry.

Why do you get angry Neal?

Shouldn't you just go and tell Jesus how silly all of us atheists are and the two of you could have a good laugh over some coffee? That's what I'd do with my wife.

Neal said...

"Thanks for making my point."

Which was... what?

Neal said...

"My observation is that your anger and insult stem from cognitive dissonance tied to a semi-conscious understanding that your faith commitment is not as real as you assert. You transfer the shame you feel for that half-aware realization to resentment towards those provoking more full awareness and lash out."

Whatever...

"Why do you get angry Neal?"

Eh? You're reading something into these posts that is not there.

Chuck said...

Neal,

Calling someone "a self-aborbed blow-hard" seems like an insult and in my experience anger is attendant to insult.

What do you care if John says your relationship with Jesus isn't real?

Why would you even pay any attention to someone who says that if you had a vibrant and real relationship?

Debunk my marriage and I will continue to enjoy the company of my wife and find your arguments insane.

I wouldn't oppose you.

Anonymous said...

Neal wrote: "Have you ever once stopped to seriously consider how you yourself might be one of those who is unaware of his own ignorance?"

Neal, when it comes to Christianity, mostly evangelical otherwise known as conservative Christianity, I am emphatically not ignorant about it. I might be wrong but I'm not ignorant about it. Wanna know why I think this? It's because I have studied it at a great depth over the last thirty-five years including earning several master's level degrees in it enough to know how little I actually know about it after all that studying. That you will not understand. You'll probably quote me out-of-context saying I admitted I actually know little about it, but that would be a lie.

And I have read your comments enough to conclude that YOU indeed are ignorant. I would have said that about you as your Christian professor in the colleges I taught. Not all Christians are ignorant. Some are very bright. And I would not tell them what I'm telling you.

So, tell us, how old are you and what grade are you in?

Anonymous said...

@Marcus,

I feel saddened by your lack of faith. Just yesterday I read almost all of your numerous postings from a single topic from May. I fear for your soul. Why do you hate Zeus so much? I know for certain - 100% without any doubt - that Zeus has given you all good things.

It has been Zeus who has provided for you. In fact, everything good that has happened in your life has been directly because of Zeus' love for you. Yet, you still choose to hate Him, the almighty Zeus. Why? Why do you hate the one true God so much? You must have so much sin in your life, which has completely blinded you to the truth.

Because of everything good in your life, you should get on bended knee and thank Zeus. Anything bad that has happened in your life, it's your fault. Daily you continue to deny the very existence of the one true God; Zeus! May his name be praised.

You are deluded. And you will continue to be deluded until you repent of your many blasphemous sins and acknowledge that your made-up god does not exist. I believe that Satan has you in his grips. I believe that unless you repent of your sins and call out to Zeus you will be tortured for billions of years. Zeus loves you. Zeus wants your fellowship. Why do you hate him so much!?!

Please, Marcus. Before it's too late consider the fact that you worship a false god. Zeus is the only true God. The spirit of Zeus confirms it in my heart, therefore it is true. Zeus is real. Your god is not.

Please Marcus, stop hating Zeus. I am praying to Zeus for you! Maybe there is still time for you before Satan completely takes over your mind. Only Zeus knows. I will continue to have hope for you, Marcus.

Neal said...

"And I have read your comments enough to conclude that YOU indeed are ignorant. I would have said that about you as your Christian professor in the colleges I taught. Not all Christians are ignorant. Some are very bright. And I would not tell them what I'm telling you."

That's very disingenuous of you. I've read enough of your posts to know that you dismiss every Christian as ignorant. You're an intellectual bully who pulls out the "you're ignorant" card whenever you are refuted.

Anonymous said...

Neal once again shows his colors: "I've read enough of your posts to know that you dismiss every Christian as ignorant."

Really? In what sense? Which Christians? How ignorant? What do you even mean? In one sense someone who disagrees with me is probably ignorant to some extent about something if I consider myself right, which I have a right to do. But in the sense I intend toward you I truly think you are ignorant beyond many college educated Christians.

Neal: "You're an intellectual bully who pulls out the "you're ignorant" card whenever you are refuted."

If you think you have said anything I consider to be a refutation of an argument of mine you are ignorant. If there were easy refutations of the arguments on both sides of this debate then one side would clearly win them every time. There are no smoking guns and no definitive refutations.

Tell ya what, if you do not respond to my question I will ban you. How old are you and what grade are you in. Answer it or do not come back. You know a great deal about me. Now tell us something about yourself. Do you still live at home with your parents?

Kev said...

John,
You often say that Christians believe because they want to believe and you can't reason a Christian out of Christianity because they weren't reasoned in. Have you ever thought that you dont believe because you dont want to believe? You automatically dismiss every argument put forward by a Christian merely because they call themself a Christian. Every argument for Christianity is immediately dismissed as silly and not worth your time. Have you truly listened to these arguments? Have you considered that you may be as closed minded as you claim that all Christians are? Were you truly reasoned out of Christianity or did you have a bad experience with Christians and therefore dismissed Christianity?

Raul said...

Kev,I'm no sure where you got this idea of "automatic dismissal". I mean,here on DC we can see John explaining his views on arguments for and against christian faith but I don't really remember any "automatic dismissals". How silly of you it is to claim,that a person,who wrote more than five hundred pages on the subject is "automatically dismissive"...
p.s.
Though I'm sure neither of us is loosing any sleep because of questions like "Is the Book of Mormon the word of God","Is Zeus real?","Should I convert to hinduism?" and so on. And that's so many "automatic dismissals"...

Neal said...

"If you think you have said anything I consider to be a refutation of an argument of mine you are ignorant."

You're so predictable.

"Tell ya what, if you do not respond to my question I will ban you. How old are you and what grade are you in."

Do what you feel you must then, as I don't see how your question is relevant to anything.