Did God Do Anything to Rescue the Chilean Miners?
The Chilean miners had spent a record 69 days in the heat of the collapsed mine who were believed to be dead for the first 17 days and then found "miraculously alive" we're told. Mario Gomez had said, "We are going to get out with God's help." When rescued Alberto Avalos said, "This is a miracle from God."
But was this a miracle? I for one am ecstatic they were all rescued. The rescue itself is an amazing story of the massive effort by engineers and scientists around the world. But we should give thanks where thanks are due, and I see no evidence God did anything to save them. Believers simply count the hits and discount the misses. If this is seen as a hit, then believers must also count all of the misses. The recent Pakistan Flood is one such miss.
But was this a miracle? I for one am ecstatic they were all rescued. The rescue itself is an amazing story of the massive effort by engineers and scientists around the world. But we should give thanks where thanks are due, and I see no evidence God did anything to save them. Believers simply count the hits and discount the misses. If this is seen as a hit, then believers must also count all of the misses. The recent Pakistan Flood is one such miss.
23 comments:
Here's a complete non-answer to your burning question. (And you don't have to thank me).
I don't see that God did anything. If not for the efforts of fellow human beings, the poor guys would have been stuck there til they died.
For those who believe God did something, what exactly is it that he did?
The engineers were meticulous, drilling multiple holes and testing every step of the way.
If God wanted to produce a miracle he could have done better than this. Why didn't he conjure up an earthquake to create a fissure they could escape through? Why make them suffer all those weeks?
It is "all about" (nothing is all about - that would be isolating)perspective right?
Your problem is that God is in control of everything. Every molecule...every atom..every sub atomic particle. This complicates the identification of so called "miracles" all together.
Note: When I say "God is in control of everything" this does not mean that God causes sin. We are created in God's Image with self-generating volition or limited sovereignty. God allows your sin (bad decisions) but that doesn't mean that He causes it.
Such a discussion will bring forth all sorts of equivocation on English words such as "cause, control, in control, ordained, determined, etc. - but it is VERY important to address what is really taking place with human choice (and the theological concept of concurrence).
Of course God was in control of all circumstances which led to the rescue to the Chilean miners...and they were morally RIGHT to thank Him and worship Him for it.
Coincidences. Very important concept to discuss. Let's say there was a scientific explanation for several of Jesus' miracles. Like the calming of the sea OR the coin in the fish's mouth. What most people don't realize is that there will be scientific explanations for all sorts of things which happened in creation
but where the miracle is demonstrated is in the "coincidence" at that particular moment when the person speaks it.
The line between so called "natural order" and miracles is already blurred. Identifying when it is God
"supernaturally" intervening in His creation (a creation that He already sustains by His Infinite Power and Order)and when God is NOT doing this (allowing bad
choices and natural order to lead to its own distruction)is often mere semantics. God creating the universe knowing everything He will allow is often tantamount to "making it happen" from a cosmic perspective.
Indeed, question everything...but when you question...pray for protection.
Answer: Yes. God did something. He sustained every molecule and every atom throughout the process of all choices made. He together acted with all circumstances (sunergeism) to bring about an end result - and that end result was "salvation" or them being rescued from death.
Not every one gets that. Question why.
It is "all about" (nothing is all about - that would be isolating)perspective right?
Your problem is that God is in control of everything. Every molecule...every atom..every sub atomic particle. This complicates the identification of so called "miracles" all together.
Note: When I say "God is in control of everything" this does not mean that God causes sin. We are created in God's Image with self-generating volition or limited sovereignty. God allows your sin (bad decisions) but that doesn't mean that He causes it.
Such a discussion will bring forth all sorts of equivocation on English words such as "cause, control, in control, ordained, determined, etc. - but it is VERY important to address what is really taking place with human choice (and the theological concept of concurrence).
Of course God was in control of all circumstances which led to the rescue to the Chilean miners...and they were morally RIGHT to thank Him and worship Him for it.
Coincidences. Very important concept to discuss. Let's say there was a scientific explanation for several of Jesus' miracles. Like the calming of the sea OR the coin in the fish's mouth. What most people don't realize is that there will be scientific explanations for all sorts of things which happened in creation
but where the miracle is demonstrated is in the "coincidence" at that particular moment when the person speaks it.
The line between so called "natural order" and miracles is already blurred. Identifying when it is God
"supernaturally" intervening in His creation (a creation that He already sustains by His Infinite Power and Order)and when God is NOT doing this (allowing bad
choices and natural order to lead to its own distruction)is often mere semantics. God creating the universe knowing everything He will allow is often tantamount to "making it happen" from a cosmic perspective.
Indeed, question everything...but when you question...pray for protection.
Answer: Yes. God did something. He sustained every molecule and every atom throughout the process of all choices made. He together acted with all circumstances (sunergeism) to bring about an end result - and that end result was "salvation" or them being rescued from death.
Not every one gets that. Question why.
It is "all about" (nothing is all about - that would be isolating)perspective right?
What you are not seeing is that God is in control of everything. Every molecule...every atom..every sub atomic particle. This complicates the identification of so called "miracles" all together.
Note: When I say "God is in control of everything" this does not mean that God causes sin. We are created in God's Image with self-generating volition or limited sovereignty. God allows your sin (bad decisions) but that doesn't mean that He causes it.
Such a discussion will bring forth all sorts of equivocation on English words such as "cause, control, in control, ordained, determined, etc. - but it is VERY important to address what is really taking place with human choice (and the theological concept of concurrence).
Of course God was in control of all circumstances which led to the rescue to the Chilean miners...and they were morally RIGHT to thank Him and worship Him for it.
Coincidences. Very important concept to discuss. Let's say there was a scientific explanation for several of Jesus' miracles. Like the calming of the sea OR the coin in the fish's mouth. What most people don't realize is that there will be scientific explanations for all sorts of things which happened in creation
but where the miracle is demonstrated is in the "coincidence" at that particular moment when the person speaks it.
(cont.)
(cont.)
The line between so called "natural order" and miracles is already blurred. Identifying when it is God
"supernaturally" intervening in His creation (a creation that He already sustains by His Infinite Power and Order)and when God is NOT doing this (allowing bad
choices and natural order to lead to its own destruction)is often mere semantics. God creating the universe knowing everything He will allow is often tantamount to "making it happen" from a cosmic perspective.
Indeed, question everything...but when you question...pray for protection.
Answer: Yes. God did something. He sustained every molecule and every atom throughout the process of all choices made. He together acted with all circumstances (sunergeism) to bring about an end result - and that end result was "salvation" or them being rescued from death.
Not every one gets that. Question why.
ahhhhhhhhhh
another Christian book poster,
Of course not.
These miners were saved by the heroic efforts, meticulous planning and back breaking labor of their fellow man. God did nothing to save these men.
It is astonishing to me how when something like this happens, where human beings are clearly responsible for engineering a positive result, Religionsist jump up and down screaming that it was God that Did it.
When something like this happens and despite all of our best efforts the miners die, as they did in Utah and Kentucky and West Virginia these very same people will wonder why WE didn't do more to save them.
Can anyone say Fundamental Attribution Error?
The point made by the commenters assigning credit solely to the miners is a valid one if one expects a God Who provides instant remediation systematically and formuliacally in accordance with our standards of acceptance. But Jesus exemplified a God Who enables and equips us to share in the good work of rescue as an indication of a full life, but Who also modeled that His terms of rescue provides a more broad definition than maintaining the life of our carnal bodies.
At any rate, Jeffrey A Meyers said this, "
Can anyone say Fundamental Attribution Error?"
The only problem with the notion of eliminating God is that one is left with the fundamental dissonance between "the goodness of mankind" versus the "evil of mankind", a perspective which tends to vascillate in accordance with the varied situations that life offers us. Just saying...
Is God responsible for Christian logorrhea?
@ Breckmin:
"No, no. It's SPELT Raymond Luxury-Yacht, but it's pronounced Throat- Warbler Mangrove."
You mean, the same god you caused the mine to collapse in first place?
Or maybe the same god who starts the fraudulent "holy fire" charade our troll Lvka is so obsessed with.
Feet, that is not a problem at all at.
Ever asked yourself why 60% of psychologists are unbelievers?
We are neither innately good or evil.
Human behavior is complex and is fashioned by competing motives. There are ample scientific explanations on why humans at times act with compassion, at other times violence. Just look at the behavior of our closest evolutionary cousins, chimps and bonobos.
(That is, unless you feel a need to chalk up chimp behvior to divineness, too.)
Hi 3g -- you wrote, "You mean, the same god you caused the mine to collapse in first place?"
Your point is valid only if an antagonistic force does not exist --Jesus acknowledged the existence of enmity against Him.
Hi again 3g -- You wrote, "Ever asked yourself why 60% of psychologists are unbelievers?"
As a matter of fact, I have never asked this question but I did use to wonder why the psychiatrists my relative went to seemed to be in need of mental health care themselves -- this could be the very reason -- thx for the insight!
You said, "We are neither innately good or evil."
Well, could you please tell this to the ppl who complain about evil or who get conceited about the good? That would be really helpful -- thx once again...
3g had a valid point.
Did the Infinite Creator allow the mine to cave in (the mine that humans themselves made) so that He could also allow people to in turn save them?
Interesting model (however imperfect it may be).
Interesting. So the mine collapsed because of enmity towed Christ. Never mind the miners and their families being practicing Christians. God is such a schizophrenic.
So you think there is something wrong with all those psychiatrists? Didn't know you were a scientologist.
Hi Breckmin -- you said, "
Did the Infinite Creator allow the mine to cave in (the mine that humans themselves made) so that He could also allow people to in turn save them?"
Just a friendly awareness alert, but I think you may have missed my comment about Jesus acknowledging the existence of an antagonistic (destructive) force. I don't think God sets us up for destruction in order to shape our characters. He does acknowledge and warn us about destruction, but He also offers something more powerful - grace.
Ttyl!
"So the mine collapsed because of enmity towed Christ. Never mind the miners and their families being practicing Christians."
The mine collapsed because of natural causes and human failures to provide safety for the miners.
But God is indeed in control of everything taking place there, both with the collapse and with the rescue.
The problem is, however, is when you attempt to look as "SINGLE" causes.
Oh, it *all* happened just for this reason...so that God could rescue them, etc. Ultimately, we will not know all of the details until we get to heaven as to how God was working and what all the specific reasons are.
I do not know if those who end up in hell will be given the same information/knowledge, btw.
I know. god always gets the credit, never any of the blame.
Sounds like a nice deal to me.
Hi 3G -- you said, "Interesting. So the mine collapsed because of enmity towed Christ. Never mind the miners and their families being practicing Christians. God is such a schizophrenic."
Please explain how having an antagonist causes schizophrenia? What is your line of logic? Again, you are equating God with instant remediation/gratification towards your standard of acceptable outcomes.
3g nursing,
I will shamelesly and obsessively bring up the Holy Light (and the turning of the Jordan) each time John feels the compulsive need to blog yet another post about how miracles just don't exist (he went through such a phase at that time, hence my recurring mention of them at that same time...)
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