Invitation for Comment: Where did they go?
Mankind has gotten better and better at astronomy over the past three centuries. We now have stunning images of vast spaces of the visible universe. Yet we probably see less than 5% of the matter that exists. One thing nobody has ever seen with a telescope is anything that looks like heaven.
The Bible, on the other hand, clearly shows us a heaven that is close to us, reachable by proximity to the clouds. God brings people up to him through the clouds, acts from within clouds, and is afraid of people who get too close to the clouds.
The first proximity event I'd like to bring up is the story of the tower of Babel. This is a tower being built by Nimrod, who the Bible doesn't accuse of wickedness or evil. Since it usually has no problem doing that, we can presume that Nimrod wasn't wicked or evil. Nimrod gets his people together and decides to build a tower (I imagine a ziggurat) out of bricks. Here I'll quote:
And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
This story suggests that Yahweh was concerned that people would invade heaven if they built a tall enough building, so he made it harder for them to communicate. His concern is obviously that the tower, if large enough could reach the divine realm that sits just above the clouds, and the tower would be a bridge to this, and much more permanent than just a ladder.
The next story I'll mention is of Elijah being taken to heaven. Elijah dries up a river, crosses on dry land across it with Elisha, "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
It's a good thing everything was made of fire. The temperature at 12,000 feet is usually below freezing. At 30000 feet it's below -35 C usually. But of course the deeper question is where Elijah went after he left the stratosphere. There's no oxygen to breathe at that point, and Elijah seemed to be a normal man getting into a normal chariot of fire, with normal horses made of fire. If Elijah never changed -- where is he now?
Apologists may say that God miracled Elijah to heaven. I can't disprove it. He obviously miracled him the the flaming horses. But why send the horses and chariot in the first place except to show off if you are gonna have to miracle him off well before 15000 feet. It seems illogical.
Finally we get to Jesus. Now again, it's quite clear that at his ascension he had a human body. That's why someone could bloody up their fingers by sticking them in his wounds. Yet again, he goes up into the sky. Where'd he go? Is heaven a place? If it is -- what direction is it? If it's not a place, why go up into the sky to get there?
As many of us know from personal experience and all of know from multiple measurements at multiple times, the sky is a pretty forbidding place. It's really really cold and it's hard to breathe. It's really the last place I'd want to ascend to unprotected.
The simplest explanation for all these is the obvious one. These are legends, not to be taken any more seriously than Odysseus and the Sirens, or Orpheus and Eurydice. It solves all the textual difficulties, and removes the burden of explanation of the mind of God. Atheists have been sternly warned by Dr. William Lane Craig not to do this, as it is the height of arrogance.
I invite comment from apologists who think they can explain this without guessing at the mind of God. If this task can't be done -- it does seem that John was well within the rights apologists hold for themselves when doing exegesis when he made his argument from the scope of the universe.
The Bible, on the other hand, clearly shows us a heaven that is close to us, reachable by proximity to the clouds. God brings people up to him through the clouds, acts from within clouds, and is afraid of people who get too close to the clouds.
The first proximity event I'd like to bring up is the story of the tower of Babel. This is a tower being built by Nimrod, who the Bible doesn't accuse of wickedness or evil. Since it usually has no problem doing that, we can presume that Nimrod wasn't wicked or evil. Nimrod gets his people together and decides to build a tower (I imagine a ziggurat) out of bricks. Here I'll quote:
And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
This story suggests that Yahweh was concerned that people would invade heaven if they built a tall enough building, so he made it harder for them to communicate. His concern is obviously that the tower, if large enough could reach the divine realm that sits just above the clouds, and the tower would be a bridge to this, and much more permanent than just a ladder.
The next story I'll mention is of Elijah being taken to heaven. Elijah dries up a river, crosses on dry land across it with Elisha, "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
It's a good thing everything was made of fire. The temperature at 12,000 feet is usually below freezing. At 30000 feet it's below -35 C usually. But of course the deeper question is where Elijah went after he left the stratosphere. There's no oxygen to breathe at that point, and Elijah seemed to be a normal man getting into a normal chariot of fire, with normal horses made of fire. If Elijah never changed -- where is he now?
Apologists may say that God miracled Elijah to heaven. I can't disprove it. He obviously miracled him the the flaming horses. But why send the horses and chariot in the first place except to show off if you are gonna have to miracle him off well before 15000 feet. It seems illogical.
Finally we get to Jesus. Now again, it's quite clear that at his ascension he had a human body. That's why someone could bloody up their fingers by sticking them in his wounds. Yet again, he goes up into the sky. Where'd he go? Is heaven a place? If it is -- what direction is it? If it's not a place, why go up into the sky to get there?
As many of us know from personal experience and all of know from multiple measurements at multiple times, the sky is a pretty forbidding place. It's really really cold and it's hard to breathe. It's really the last place I'd want to ascend to unprotected.
The simplest explanation for all these is the obvious one. These are legends, not to be taken any more seriously than Odysseus and the Sirens, or Orpheus and Eurydice. It solves all the textual difficulties, and removes the burden of explanation of the mind of God. Atheists have been sternly warned by Dr. William Lane Craig not to do this, as it is the height of arrogance.
I invite comment from apologists who think they can explain this without guessing at the mind of God. If this task can't be done -- it does seem that John was well within the rights apologists hold for themselves when doing exegesis when he made his argument from the scope of the universe.