The Crimes of Protestant Pastors are Many

I don't post stories about the crimes of Protestant pastors. I leave that up to others. Who does the best job of documenting these stories? I think Dave at exchristian.net does. Check back almost daily for more and more and more crimes of pastors. Is there any wonder why we can't take Christianity seriously when even their leaders don't seem to be any better for their faith? We're told that by their fruits we'll know them. Yep. We're told there are tares as well as wheat in the crops. But at some point there is just too much bad fruit and too many tares to believe the Christian faith produces fruit or wheat at all.

40 comments:

Rob R said...

Let's look at some rough math.

The crimes of ANY group, occupation, or any other social distinction is many in a world of 6 billion people and in a country of 300,million people. Let's say only a quarter of a percent are pastors. That's 750,000 people. Lets say only half a percent commit crimes. That's 3,250 people. That relatively tiny number of people is going to commit high profile newsworthy crimes given that they ARE pastors.

I went to the news section at xchiristian and counted 19 criminal reports in a 2 month span. One of them was just a new development on an old story. So subtracting that, we've got an average of 54 crimes a year. In a 40 year span, if that was the average number of years for one to be a pastor, this comes to about an average of 2000 crimes. That goes under my numbers.

the reality may be worse. It may be less, but at any rate, but this is a problematic subjective plea given the fact that the tipping point when the wheat to tare ratio is just discrediting and the frequency of such reports also don't really indicate the size of the problem to begin with.

This just seems to boil down to an emotional appeal. That's a good thing that you can do that because they are a necessary and essential part of an epistemology that is properly geared for the human race. But of course, there is good reason that appeals to emotions have been seen as fallacious.

The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvka said...

The Crimes of Protestant Pastors are Many


You DON'T say! :-)

Anonymous said...

It's not so much an appeal to emotion as it is a demonstration that there is no difference in behavior on a macro level between the Christian population and the population in general.

One would expect a difference if it was truly possible to have a relationship with a Holy Spirit of some sort or a personal relationship with the son of the ultimate creator of the universe.

and queue no true Scotsman...

Rob R said...

It's not so much an appeal to emotion as it is a demonstration that there is no difference in behavior on a macro level between the Christian population and the population in general.

I think I demonstrated that this was not clearly established at all given the lack of statistical analysis that would establish the difference in quantity of behaviors.

But if you are concerned with quality of behaviors, why should that be different. If a pastor is going to fail, I don't see why he should fail in the same way as anyone else. And we see that this is precisely the biblical picture. Even the saints fail. Even God's choosen leaders fall away and indulge in the only rebellion that is available to the rest of us, human rebellion.


One would expect a difference if it was truly possible to have a relationship with a Holy Spirit

We most certainly should expect a difference. But observations as superficial as this post just aren't going to tell us one way or another. The difference is going to be in knowing them personally, more importantly, knowing there lives. Even that is not fool proof, but it's not like that is any different from any other form of knowledge we have. All proposed knowledge, whether it is of persons, or of axioms has the risk at some level of being believed wrongly. If that is inconsistent, then we can know nothing as the history of western philosophy has demonstrated.

and queue no true Scotsman...

No need. while it is certainly true that there are wolves in sheeps clothing (and amongst the shepards themselves as Jerimiah 23:1 indicates), there are also the faithful who fall away, there are those who backslide, and those who fall off the deep end. Christian membership and growth does not mean the end of free will and trials.

Robert the Skeptic said...

"Note that atheists, being a moderate proportion of the USA population (about 8-16%) are disproportionately less in the prison populations (0.21%)."

Source

Rob R said...

DM,

I don't suppose your fate would be much different than Loftus' that is, hopefully unless you both repent of your rebellion.

LadyAtheist said...

DM, how do you know the Buddhists aren't right? Maybe you'll come back as a cockroach for the sin of arrogance for thinking you know "the truth."

Rob R said...

DM, don't rail against the atheists and then deny others what God has tasked for all of the faithful.

Besides, my immeadiate fate is having to waste seconds of my life scrolling past loads of insane babble. It's bad enough that I have to do that with a few of the atheist commenters here who's posts are only slightly more engaging than yours (And I emphasize, it is only a few.

Rob R said...

And you aren't interested in discussion either here at a blog for discussion.

What of it?

You can't follow the simple golden rule to be interested in what others want, but we should be interested in what you have to say? Is this not hypocritical?

Anonymous said...

Rob R; I was actually refering to this AND other statistics (some of which Robert the Skeptic was nice enough to post).

I enjoy your unfalsifiable position. "Oh, there's a difference, you just can't notice it in most people, even saints! Oh, and the ones who you could in fact notice a difference in, you haven't met any of them."

Good stuff.

Rob R said...

Ryan, if you are posting links, they aren't showing up.


As for those statistics, I was talking about the topic that John posted about pastors. I reserve the right not to follow tangents though I will take them up, provided we acknowledge that the topic has been dealt with and the tangent isn't used to distract from that as they usually are.

Yes, I am aware of the prison statistics. It's been discussed at this blog before and many good points were made beyond these observations of mine.

I don't think that many people who go to prison are the most thoroughly reflective sorts. They give more over to impulses and instincts and don't second guess them. That includes our spiritual instinct. But following an instinct to the point of superficial identification with a faith tradition and cultivating a relationship with God and the Holy spirit are two different things.

Another reason for prisoners to have some religiosity at all is that if anyone knows the value of hope, it's prisoners and religion provides vastly more hope than atheism could. But it's not like they all consistently follow through on what that hope requires. They still have alot of brokenness to contest with keeping them from full, authentic, consistent faithfulness that brings healing.

Anonymous said...

Yes, Rob R, let's not distract from a tiny bit of the picture with the larger picture.

Here's another tangent.

Rob R said...

As for your latest tangent, my comment in John's blog post on Bob Jones offers a relevant response.

Rob R said...

repost to remove oddly worded phrase.

Sorry, but the illusion that points don't get settled is often due to people not sticking to topic. Conversations just aren't productive if you can never discuss the details thoroughly. Discussions of world views or religions just aren't realistic if every time you bring up a specific problem, you fault the other person for not offering an apologetic for everything else.

You didn't draw attention to the bigger picture anyway. You just went to another detail. You went from Christian pastors who commit crimes to the low percentage of atheists in jail.

Anonymous said...

Rob R said "You went from Christian pastors who commit crimes to the low percentage of atheists in jail."

Both of which point to the apparent fact that religious beleif has either no effect or a negative effect in the aggregate. I.e. the bigger picture.

Rob R said...

Both of which point to the apparent fact that religious beleif has either no effect or a negative effect in the aggregate. I.e. the bigger picture.

One of the problems with tangents could still be raised. It's just not reallistic to critisize one for dealing with all examples of a principle just because he dealt with the ones that the original topic starter brought up.

And again, if our scripture already says that these kinds of things happened, how have you proven our scripture wrong? Again, it seems to me that your case only works if we lose our free will or need to grow after becoming a Christian, and that yes, this is not no true scottman (especially since I just admitted that such people are or have been Christians) some of these people were never real Christians.

Papalinton said...

@ Rob
"DM,
I don't suppose your fate would be much different than Loftus' that is, hopefully unless you both repent of your rebellion."


Goodness gracious Rob, this christian word 'repent' is so conflated and so indiscriminately used as to render it nothing more than verbal diarrhea. Your squawking acquiescence to 'repent' is 'repellant'.

Sheesh

Rob R said...

it's worse then that.

shame on me for discouraging someone for trolling an atheist blog.

Gandolf said...

Rob R said...
it's worse then that.

shame on me for discouraging someone for trolling an atheist blog."

................

No Papalinton is correct and so is Ryan.And shame on you for making so many excuses upon excuses and being only prepared to turn a blind eye to it.And not seeing that only complete morons would not see how stupid it be to even bother to have theory of threat of hell for humans, which are all obviously imperfect anyway to varying degrees.

It only helps produce self rightous Gonzos like you Rob ,muppets that prattle on and on with endless word games, and making moronic excuses for everything about themselves and their chosen faith ,while also throwing threats of hell and damnation at any others they dont agree with.And DM is only another part of this selfrightous faith creation.

Personally i do not condemn DM for his action , even if i find it sometimes annoying.He is but part of the nastiness of faith attitude.

It is not only these abusive priests that we see faith having a bad effect on .We blatantly see it in many faithful people like yourself, as well as the world around us .People like yourself so concerned and determined to try and cover this large and widespread problem up, with more and more educated rhetoric.

And you try telling others? they need to be looking more at the bigger picture.Wake up Rob .Dump the "charismatic deluded devotion" and you might start to see that yes there is a bigger picture! and you have been missing seeing it.And the bigger picture of faith is honestly not actually so very pretty at all, even if some people like you like to still dream maybe it is.

These priests and what not being exposed and brought to justice in these instances, are only the very tip! of the iceberg,The rest of the damage and harmful effects of faith and religion as it is still being promoted today, lays underneath the fluffy looking exterior ,and is causing much more harm to verying degrees than people like yourself are willing to be honest enough about, and admit.

You try to compare these faithful folk to your average Joe citizen when it suits.But when doing so you conveniently forget your average Joe citizen dont condemn and threaten humans to hell and eternal damnation should they dare not bow down to your faith.They is not faith terrorists groupys, with rights and freedom to abuse people.

Now if your faith be worthwhile we should not see the harm and damage that we do see.Just as if medication is good ,it usually works toward healing people! rather than creating and promoting a sickness.

There is parts of religion that is good such as charity and closeness of group therapy.

But humans shouldnt need these specialist faiths to help with gathering people together.And while these faiths do gather some together in specialist groups, these groups also work in helping to create other human divisions that has become widespread and harmful.

Our world needs widespead healing.Faith groups and threats and damnation quite obviously isnt very helpful.Seperation and segregation is obviously stupidity.It dont stop harm from happening ,in fact obviously it can even encourage mass abusive practice in these group confinements.

Gandolf said...

Rob R said...
it's worse then that.

shame on me for discouraging someone for trolling an atheist blog."

................

No Papalinton is correct and so is Ryan.And shame on you for making so many excuses upon excuses and being only prepared to turn a blind eye to it.And not seeing that only complete morons would not see how stupid it be to even bother to have theory of threat of hell for humans, which are all obviously imperfect anyway to varying degrees.

It only helps produce self rightous Gonzos like you Rob ,muppets that prattle on and on with endless word games, and making moronic excuses for everything about themselves and their chosen faith ,while also throwing threats of hell and damnation at any others they dont agree with.And DM is only another part of this selfrightous faith creation.

Personally i do not condemn DM for his action , even if i find it sometimes annoying.He is but part of the nastiness of faith attitude.

It is not only these abusive priests that we see faith having a bad effect on .We blatantly see it in many faithful people like yourself, as well as the world around us .People like yourself so concerned and determined to try and cover this large and widespread problem up, with more and more educated rhetoric.

And you try telling others? they need to be looking more at the bigger picture.Wake up Rob .Dump the "charismatic deluded devotion" and you might start to see that yes there is a bigger picture! and you have been missing seeing it.And the bigger picture of faith is honestly not actually so very pretty at all, even if some people like you like to still dream maybe it is.

These priests and what not being exposed and brought to justice in these instances, are only the very tip! of the iceberg,The rest of the damage and harmful effects of faith and religion as it is still being promoted today, lays underneath the fluffy looking exterior ,and is causing much more harm to verying degrees than people like yourself are willing to be honest enough about, and admit.

Gandolf said...

Rob R.

You try to compare these faithful folk to your average Joe citizen when it suits.But when doing so you conveniently forget your average Joe citizen dont condemn and threaten humans to hell and eternal damnation should they dare not bow down to your faith.They is not faith terrorists groupys, with rights and freedom to abuse people.

Now if your faith be worthwhile we should not see the harm and damage that we do see.Just as if medication is good ,it usually works toward healing people! rather than creating and promoting a sickness.

There is parts of religion that is good such as charity and closeness of group therapy.

But humans shouldnt need these specialist faiths to help with gathering people together.And while these faiths do gather some together in specialist groups, these groups also work in helping to create other human divisions that has become widespread and harmful.

Our world needs widespead healing.Faith groups and threats and damnation quite obviously isnt very helpful.Seperation and segregation is obviously stupidity.It dont stop harm from happening ,in fact obviously it can even encourage mass abusive practice in these group confinements.

GearHedEd said...

Awesome!

rotflmao

Anonymous said...

Gandolf
You provided an excellent rebuttal to RobR’s madness. It was actually very relaxing to read. RobR cannot respond to anything without posting a book and blaming hell on free will. Who Gave the humans free will in the first place? And of course his Arminian definition of free will differs widely from theologians like John Calvin, Martin Luther, C.H. Spurgeon, and R.C. Sproul.

They are constantly trying to get God off the hook. Even if scripture did teach RobR’s version of free will (and there is good exegetical argument to believe that it does not) he would still be in a pickle. The pickle is, how could a God of any kind create such a horid place as hell. There all powerful God did not have to create such a place. And don’t even try using the old God created Hell for Satan and his angels B.S. Rob.

Anonymous said...

Also check out this site for a log of religious leaders gone bad.

It's called "Hypocrisy Watch":

http://mojoey.blogspot.com/search/label/Hypocrisy%20Watch

Ross said...

This comment is contributed in humility. Anglican Bishop Wollongong, NSW, Rev Al Stewart, was speaking at a Christian mens' convention in Melbourne. He was giving an anecdote about a conversation he had with an agnostic friend of his about Christianity. One of the reasons why this friend had trouble accepting Christianity was the hypocrisy of Christians. Al said to him, "Don't worry about the hypocrites; God will sort them out. What about you?"

I don't see how the failings of Christian leaders, or even my own failings, invalidate the whole of Christianity. I've felt let down and disappointed by the church before, but in the end as a Christian I follow Christ, not other Christians, and he has never let me down.

Rob R said...

You provided an excellent rebuttal to RobR’s madness.

Gandolf hates me for suggesting that DM can be redeemed. But he focusses on the idea that he has a fate to be redeemed from, attached to his destructive trolling practices. Yes, I embrace this madness.

And the really important thing to Gandolf is where I'm wrong. That I called someone out for trolling an atheist blog is of no value (but hey, I'm happy to be proven wrong here).

RobR cannot respond to anything without posting a book

Ironically, Gandolf's double post was the longest here at the time of your posting (DM's deleated posts were stretched out, but they aren't very dense). Gandolf also frequently makes long posts.

But hey, that's the criticism of the sound byte generation.

and blaming hell on free will.

I've been posting a lot lately. Weird that the very few where I mention these are the ones I've read as the vast majority of what I post do not involve either.

and I have no confidence in an eternal hell. Ironically, I told you this and linked to (even more ironically) John LOftus' post against the idea. As John Loftus' old Christian self, I believe that there will be judgement, but an eternal conscious hell is not necessary to that.

Who Gave the humans free will in the first place?

God did, because it was worth the risk (and not certainty) of evil, because it enabled a certain quality of love that would not be possible otherwise, a certain quality of consciousness, creativity, authentic novelty, and a sovereignty in humans over creation that more closely reflects his own sovereignty. And all of this has to do with creating us in the image of God.

And of course his Arminian definition of free will differs widely from theologians like John Calvin

What of it? Are then asserting a fallacious appeal to controversy (don't bother looking it up, it is the inverse of a fallacious appeal to authority).

Even if scripture did teach RobR’s version of free will

1st Corinthians 10:13 doesn't make sense without it.

(and there is good exegetical argument to believe that it does not)

really old arguments out of touch with much of the current research on scripture.

And don’t even try using the old God created Hell for Satan and his angels B.S. Rob.

I'm happy with the "B.S." that John Loftus posted against the biblical case for an eternal hell which he posted even as an atheist. But the first time you brought it up, I linked you to Glenn Peoples even more thorough argument.

Gandolf said...

Rob R said..."Gandolf hates me for suggesting that DM can be redeemed. But he focusses on the idea that he has a fate to be redeemed from, attached to his destructive trolling practices. Yes, I embrace this madness.

And the really important thing to Gandolf is where I'm wrong. That I called someone out for trolling an atheist blog is of no value (but hey, I'm happy to be proven wrong here)."

No i dont hate you at all Rob,thats where you are so very wrong.Yes i dislike faiths that terrorised people with manipulative ideas about needing redemption OR ELSE risk eternal death.And i dislike ..read my lips dislike ,some people who are so very happy to continually make so many excuses.Who in doing so trivalize all the suffering.

Why do you suppose DM might go around being threatning and nasty with tendency to manipulative type methods of look-out or else!.Do you suppose faiths have honestly been so very helpful to help breed such all inclusive loving unthreatening type nature into all our societies Rob ,when the basis of all these faith beliefs has often been about seperation , segregation , condemnation ,threats of hellfire ,manipulation and terrorization of any who dare! not conform etc.

I dont see DM as anymore of an enemy, than i see my own nasty family as and enemy, because i do understand the reason for the nastiness and the way they act, and realize they were also effected by faith that have traditionally condemned and mistreated those not with them.

Hell i even understand its your faith that makes you excuse stuff with such ease Rob,i see my own cult family do exactly the same type thing.I even understand it you faith that makes you decide to simply excommnicate from folks if they dont agree to play the game by rules you choose ,my cult family act the same way.

They like to be awkward,manipulative,twist and turn,play word games.

Their choice of underhand bullshit is always fine in their faith mind,but if anyone else dare play by their own set of unfair rules.They suddenly drop their bottom lip and excommuinicate.

What is so stupidly dumb about this crap of being redeemed.Is the stupid idea forgets nobodys ever going to be perfect anyway.So why any need to be redeemed ?, why not just simply forgive all! oot of acceptance of being humanly imperfect.

All the stupid faith of redemption ever does is breed a type of self rightousness arrogance.Through providing a way for SOME humans to try and see themselves as somehow being above others!.And they even culture this nasty arrogance through belief of Jesus.

And yes these are some things i happen to "dislike" Rob.

But i dont often honestly ever "hate" anyone.Even my own nasty faithful family whos beliefs made our life like a kind of living hell on earth.

Because hate only eats your heart.

Gandolf said...

Ross said.."I don't see how the failings of Christian leaders, or even my own failings, invalidate the whole of Christianity. I've felt let down and disappointed by the church before, but in the end as a Christian I follow Christ, not other Christians, and he has never let me down."

Ross some things written within all these faiths are still valid.Golden rules, wisdoms etc.

But whats strange is it doesnt seem to help humanity to have us segregate off into all these many seperate faiths.It even quite often seems to make the humanity less.

Oh sure yes these groups can make sure to purposely work extra hard at charity, and its all good, but often more about showmanship than anything ,as even the nasty cults can do it.

And surely it would be better to incorperate it more into mainstream society ,without promoting need of these segregated groups,that help breed human nature of selfrightousness and bigotry ,through supposed reedemption gained from belonging to some special group.

So its not so much about proving "everything wrong" contained within faith,as much thats recorded within these faith ,is just well proven human experience with a good track record of being benificial to our societies.And lots of this is not born from faith,indeed some even had its pagan roots as well.

But what wrong about faith,is its proved to not help produce better human society.If anything it often helps breed bigotry,and segregation and lots of nastys.

Your type argument is.. but look a few people come out looking rosy! from having faith.But the same could maybe be said of a few after sexual abuse or few after drug addiction or gambling habits or speeding ,or drink driving.And some medicines they create might not actually kill everyone ,should we ok? these type meds and say well ...look its a bit of a gamble but look hopefully nobody gets hurt? ..Tests do say that it helps a few! folks out ,although its sheeze its a bit horribly! "random" in its effect!.

The thing is Ross like taking a aspro ,if this faith is HONESTLY so great,so wonderfully redeeming! etc ,shouldnt we see "far more" widespread positive effect ..as we do with aspro ...Considdering folks do claim! being guided by such a "extremely powerful thing" as the "holy spirit"?.Guidence of the "Holy spirit"? ,hell that should really be a bit like a wonder pill right?

The honest effect of Faith seems to show its a whole lot more like all these trendy health pill gimmicks.Gimmicks that often only make holes in your pocket! where all your hard earned cash trickles away , and in the case of faith its where possibility of having a less bigoted more together world! with less seperated families seperated by faith groups,slowly trickles away ! and leads us faster further toward doom and dispair.And even war!

Ross you didnt really expect your pastor to tell you this stuff did you?.Hell even the "hierarchy" of the most abusive cults will say, look mate not all our families have been split! and devided! and we havent all commited suicide yet!.

And you know what Ross .Plenty within those abusive cults will hear that , and think ..wow that just so very true ! .Swoon!..And wander off merrily appeased of all their worrys ...Thinking woopee!! im going to heaven to be with Jesus

Neve mind what Pastors tell you Ross ..ask yourself these things ...Think about it for yourself ... if faith is supposedly so good ..so reedeeming for people etc ....Why is it that "overall" and more in "general" , we see that it actually looks like its been so bad and caused us so much harm and heartbreak and is still doing so.

Because like the aspro ...If it was honestly so very useful and helpful and healing etc...We surely would "observe" the "evidence".Faith would really be healing many people.

Sadly we see its caused us a very great sickness.

Take care Ross.

Gandolf said...

Exreformed said ..."There all powerful God did not have to create such a place"

Hi Exreformed and thanks.And sorry to have read you have also experienced some of the more nasty aspects of faith.

Anyway "There all powerful God did have to create such a place" ...Simply because without it there would be no threat and so no possibility of use of faith terrorism either .

And if you cant create a type of fear then its just almost impossible to ever get to control human through manipulation and mindcontrol.

However i agree there was no need for hell.

Other than human uses for terrorism.And so human need of creating a idea! of a God, that supposedly had a place called hell.

Ross said...

My point is that most thinking Christians are well aware that there's often a wide gulf between what Jesus and the apostles taught and what the church has down. This blog post is hardly a startling revelation.

Rob R said...

All the stupid faith of redemption ever does is breed a type of self rightousness arrogance.Through providing a way for SOME humans to try and see themselves as somehow being above others!

When I read someone who describes another as a "self rightous Gonzos... muppets that prattle on and on with endless word games, and making moronic excuses for everything about themselves and their chosen faith", I don't see a description of an equal. It really sounds like the self rightous gonzo is beneath (interestingly, gonzo was my favorite muppet, he thought out of the box, but that's beside the point).

Why do you suppose DM might go around being threatning and nasty with tendency to manipulative type methods of look-out or else!.Do you suppose faiths have honestly been so very helpful to help breed such all inclusive loving unthreatening type nature into all our societies Rob

I suppose that if you don't take an antibiotic the way your doctor instructs you to, you run the risk of allowing an even worse resistant strain to breed that is more difficult to treat. It doesn't follow from that that antibiotics or medical care as a whole are evil or don't work. It does follow that half measures or failure to follow directions (or even malpractice) in medicine can be very destructive and dangerous. The new testament indicates the same with those who have intentions of following God. I'd never say that much religion isn't as potentially toxic and destructive as much anti-religion.

But i dont often honestly ever "hate" anyone.Even my own nasty faithful family whos beliefs made our life like a kind of living hell on earth.

It has bothered me that I was flippant about your background at one point. I don't know if you remember it or not, but I apologize for it.

Gandolf said...

Ross said..."My point is that most thinking Christians are well aware that there's often a wide gulf between what Jesus and the apostles taught and what the church has down. This blog post is hardly a startling revelation."

Well if thats the case Ross,why bother with it.Why not just accept being human and forget this carry on of segregating off into church groups and pretending redeemed people are better off.You already had two thousand years.Whats it going to take ,another two thousand to perfect?.This post doesnt need to be any startling revelation,maybe its more about just reminding folks about matters, matters that plenty would rather prefer got swept under the carpet and went as unoticed as possible.

But anyway Ross, that most thinking christians "be well aware" about something isnt going to help do a whole lot to change it.Not if the cause is within religion teachings itself.And i think it is.I think at least part of the cause is that faith breeds people with bad attitudes.You will think it doesnt,but the evidence being observed doesnt seem so good.And i dont think its the people fault.It has to be about more to do with what they are being indoctrinated with.You could read me every word in the bibile Jesus said.But reading his words wont subtract away from the bigoted subconcious thought that you going to church or reading these type books,somehow supposedly makes you better than somebody else like me is, will it.You will think i need this redeeming carry on.Need to join you! in what you read and do ,as if somehow you are better in some special way.

Reading words of Jesus isnt going to put a halt to that,if anything its just going to help keep that bad attitude going.Because the root of the problem lay in the belief redeemtion improves people.

Often it seems the more liberal a church becomes and the less they read faith books or go to church etc,also the more likely they are to treat other people in the community decent and blend in and get along with more of them all in more harmony as well.What does that tell you about matters of faith Ross.

Seems religion has the same kind of effect on people as racism does.Even worse when racism doesnt use threats of hell and eternal damnation as a weapon of terrorism.

Gandolf said...

Rob R.."When I read someone who describes another as a "self rightous Gonzos... muppets that prattle on and on with endless word games, and making moronic excuses for everything about themselves and their chosen faith", I don't see a description of an equal. It really sounds like the self rightous gonzo is beneath (interestingly, gonzo was my favorite muppet, he thought out of the box, but that's beside the point)."

Oh i see so id be considdered fine if i simply accepted faithful folks right to impose their nasty divisive beliefs into society.

So in effect Robs thoughts of equality ,is faithful and Christians having the right to impose their beliefs into our societies.And having the right to beat around the bush with endlessly twisting matters through educated slippery-slimy use of word games.

And should i be straight up about what i think about it, along with very many others who just so happen to also be saying much the same things ...Suddenly we are the ones not sticking to "equality" via faith rules.

See this is exactly what i mean about you twisting matters Rob.You try claim everything is equal and faith isnt doing any harm ,and Rob isnt slippery and slimy ...which would mean im being out of line.

But thats a false and dishonest claim you make.You do! beat around the bush and twist and play educated word games with many folks here on these blogs.You are no different to an abusive cult leader they way you trying finding excuses.And the presense of your faith beliefs in our societies inforces! many bad attitudes upon us all.Some of which people like me have had to even personally experienced ourselves.

I call you a Gonzo for a "reason". A "good reason" ,the reason is equality doesnt exist! and people like you prattle on making stupid excuses upon excuses for it.Using word games and cherry picking the scriptures and twisting and turning , almost like any other average abusive cult leader would also do.

And where do you suppose these abusive cult leaders might get learn their tricks of the trade of twisting matters with lengthly educated words games eh? Rob .They learn it and often evolve from the more main stream churches, then further perfect it .Funny thing that

Then people like you will sit back and try judge them as being unchristian.

See you just cant help youself can you Rob.Once again you gotta try "twisting it" ,and claiming i had absolutely no reason at all to get a little pissed off with you.

You want to claim your educated extensive use of bullshit excuses and rhetoric is quite fine, its playing a fair ball game via faith rules in your faithful mind.

And you want to also claim ,me calling you out as a Gonzo for continually doing it , is a totally unfair ball game and way out of line.

See how easily you twist matters Rob.Just like does a Pope using educated rhetoric, twisting and turning and excusing, claiming somehow he`s a completely white sheep, with regards to matters of sex abuse in his faith.

I say the Pope is a Gonzo too Rob .He might think outside the square and be great at twisting and turning and be good at educated use of rhetoric ...But we dont need education to still see right through his ball game , and understand he`s just been acting like a real Gonzo ! who really needs to learn to quit all the bullshite, and to just be a little more straight up!.

Gandolf said...

Rob R said..."I suppose that if you don't take an antibiotic the way your doctor instructs you to, you run the risk of allowing an even worse resistant strain to breed that is more difficult to treat. It doesn't follow from that that antibiotics or medical care as a whole are evil or don't work. It does follow that half measures or failure to follow directions (or even malpractice) in medicine can be very destructive and dangerous. The new testament indicates the same with those who have intentions of following God. I'd never say that much religion isn't as potentially toxic and destructive as much anti-religion."

Well i cant agree with you Rob,but then thats why you still follow religion while i dont.

Im pretty sure i understand what your line of argument is about.That supposedly if this medicine is being used the right way,it will heal and be helpful for humanity and our society.

But if a medicine works and there is some right way we should all be using it, we usually see more and more people drawn toward ALL start using this particular medicine and also use it a "special particular" way also.And we would soon all also observe! all the positive healing taking place.And then very soon it would become a worldwide hit.

We dont see that happening with religion and faith , even after thousands of years Rob.

And whats more we now have many angry and unhappy folks like DM.With renewed threat of atomic wars etc looming overhead.

If we had more loving and kind and undivided caring forgiving societies in our countries ,people in other countries would be more drawn towards use of our type medicine.

But we have much nastiness and unforgiving division and bigotry ,with many specialist groups also extremely intent ! on also going elswhere into countries overseas to try covert and peddle the faith poison.

And then some will stil wonder why so much unhappiness and even renewed threat of atomic war might suddenly loom overhead.

Many of these faithful folk will then blame it on the devil.Point to their faith books and say,ohhh look here! see...told you so!... it says here its going to happen

And then all continue onwards still preaching one of the many faiths of such bigotry and division.

When all the while what the world actually needs more of, is just the unity of the "faith" of all humans simply accepting being humans, who all live in the same world! and all need to breath the same air! and even swimm and fish in much the same sea!.

We cant ever do that while these faiths are still around teaching otherwise.

Rob said.."It has bothered me that I was flippant about your background at one point. I don't know if you remember it or not, but I apologize for it."

No..even if you did i have completely forgotten about it.Im being honest! when i say i do try my best not to ever hate people, Rob.Its been a work in motion for me to learn not to hate people,seeing i was born into such religious nastiness, that was always going to! last out my whole lifetime.It hurt like hell,but i had to accept it.

But i guess if nothing else, it "learned me", pretty well that its not really so helpful to ever hold "hatered" for people.Yes you may really "dislike" some things about people,but holding hatered only eats you! up in the end.

So no what ever you think you might have said, simply let it go and forget it Rob.I simply forgive people! Rob,im not so big into peoples need of gaining some sort of special types of fancy redemption.We are not perfect,never will be.

But that dont mean i dont get a little angry sometimes, if it feels like the ball game being played, seems unfair.

Gandolf said...

Rob ill tell you a little true story of mine.

It would be about 6 years back now i suppose (strangly almost seems like a life time) the cult i was born into,had something they called as the "reveiw".The cult leader decided many things had been done wrong,and many people had been very mistreated.Looking back now i see it was most likely approach of bad public publicity ,that fired this sudden guilt and seemigly change of heart.But anyway he ordered this reveiw where those mistreated were contacted and apologized too.

So for me suddenly after 29 years suddenly a brother inlaw and my sister tracks me down, and arrives on my door step.You can maybe amigine how this felt,all the feelings that welled up inside me.Years of pain and hurt and knowledge of the way this faith had effected my life and even the life of my children,yes i cried .But still straight away i simply forgave them of everything.

I spent some time among family,it was me that killed the fatted calf and simply dropped everything and went straight to be with them all and spend time together.Many kept saying sorry,and i would always quickly simply say, look just forget it.Now is all that matters.

Although i didnt think much of it i remember noticing at the time this free forgivness seemed to really puzzle them.Infact i even heard them talking about it among each other in groups."He simply forgives us" i once heard them say as they talked in a group around the table.

But sadly it wasnt long until many of us ex cult members realized this "review" wasnt just about putting things right.It was a way to avert approaching bad publicity and also get back intouch and start trying to use manipulation to get us to agree to return.And when we didnt agree to return,they slowly just cut us off once again.I have now not seen any of them again, in 5 and a half years gone by now.

1,Having averted some fast approaching bad publicity

2,found a way to rid themselves of some guilt.

3,made themselves feel really good about themselves, like they had offered us all a special way to re-choose faithful redemption by agreeing to choose to once again come and be involved in their chosen faith once again.

Rob i think this faithful idea of redemption breeds people who simply cant understand it, when some atheist folks like me simply accept our human imperfections, and like to try to "learn" to simply forgive and forget freely without need of use of lots of old traditional extensive faith type rules and rituals and bullshite.Old faith traditions that tend to only "breed" use of more ritual and regulation etc ,rather than just plain old true love! and simply straight up! honesty.

I see you! also seem to not trust or even really "understand" atheist people like me, when we suggest its not any "hate" or "rules of unforgiveness" that we bottle up and feel.That because you have been taught this Jesus faith of some need for a ritualized redemption.Accepting humanitys imperfections and such complete freedom of forgiveness is become alien to you.

Thinking back now i think maybe i should have gotten all the apologies written down on paper,because i realize now these people sadly just cant really be trusted.They live by rule regulation and ritual,not humanity and honesty.

But i was simply being completely open and straight up and honest in my complete unregulated forgiveness.And i loved and trusted them.

Your Jesus faith suggests if we do the right thing,supposedly the Gods will be doing something to be helpful.This i have proven to be very wrong! false thought and highly untruthful!, many times.

We cannot rely on Gods that obviously just dont even exist.And when we do, we must also need pay the price for being so utterly stupid.

Rob R said...

I don't have trouble with believing that you could forgive your family at all. It's a good thing that the idea from our Christian heritage persists within the post Christian culture that did not come up with it to begin with.

But I have my doubts. I understand that you have a lot of hurt, but have you really forgiven them when you still take your frustration towards them out on me and anyone who shares the most general common ground with them of just being religious. And the common ground may be deeper than that too. After all, the common ground between one who abuses medicine and damages themselves and uses it correctly may be quite high.

Gandolf said...

Oh Rob whether Christians existed or not humans would still evolve much the same way they have.Who knows maybe even faster and better without them?.People such as Confucious were around long before the Christian movement even began and Christians sure never invented humanism.Hell they never even honestly invented Christmas.No it seems if there is one thing Christians really perfected it was lieing and twisting matters and stealing other peoples inventions and claiming them for themselves.Being right Gonzos and trying to suggest they can take ownership of things that they have no honest right to even claim.Its partly why the Pope cant even just be a little honest Rob, we see him even trying to twist the truth and hide sex abuse.

And no its about time these things need addressing.Its not just about frustrations at all Rob.Idiots like you might try and claim sexually abused kids from the Catholic Church are just taking out their frustrations on poor little Rob the Christian who really dont like hearing how his faith sucks.

You play these stupid silly underhand ball games with me full of such bullsit and twisting matters, and then cry wolf and wimper and moan and try calling highly unfair when i suggest what a right Gonzo like the Pope, you also sometimes seem to be.

The way you see it of course is you feel as a big headed Christian, that you have the right to play ball by your underhand rules,and then when i play by mine own underhand rules some too, you cry not fair not fair....whaaa im telling my mummy ..im not talking anymore to you boo hoo

And this is your Christian view of whats honestly fair.Its Robs way or the highway.We play by your rules or you wont talk with us.

Thats just like the cult i was born into Rob.

See you try turning it around to being only me that has the problems with Robby .... But thats twisting it too! and so dishonestly untrue! isnt it Rob ...Because others here have had some of the "very same" problems with you too, havent they Rob ...Just let me know if you really need me to name a couple.

Otherwise stop trying to blame this all on me.Im only human ..not claiming to be Jesus .You make life awkward and twist the truth ...I find it untruthful and call you a right Gonzo for doing it.

Why am i only to blame ?.

So no dont try and pull this bullshit and "twist it around" to me only taking my past out on you.Thats simply not the truth.You are a deceitful Christian who likes playing mega word games .Christianity is like that and does have big problems ,which is why the Popes finding himself swimming in hot water also.

I simply dont have the same problems with all Christians i deal with Rob.Some of them dont beat around the bush,throwing endless silly "underhand curve balls" trying to fluke and fool their way through the debate.

I play fair ball with people who play fair ball.Did i ever make claims to being Jesus Rob?.

Hell you as a Christian! cant even be honest Rob!.Why expect me as an atheist to be the one turning the other cheek.

Shows just how much good your fancy education seems it actually did for you.

Gandolf said...

Oh Rob whether Christians existed or not humans would still evolve much the same way they have.Who knows maybe even faster and better without them?.People such as Confucious were around long before the Christian movement even began and Christians sure never invented humanism.Hell they never even honestly invented Christmas.No it seems if there is one thing Christians really perfected it was lieing and twisting matters and stealing other peoples inventions and claiming them for themselves.Being right Gonzos and trying to suggest they can take ownership of things that they have no honest right to even claim.Its partly why the Pope cant even just be a little honest Rob, we see him even trying to twist the truth and hide sex abuse.

And no its about time these things need addressing.Its not just about frustrations at all Rob.Idiots like you might try and claim sexually abused kids from the Catholic Church are just taking out their frustrations on poor little Rob the Christian who really dont like hearing how his faith sucks.

You play these stupid silly underhand ball games with me full of such bullsit and twisting matters, and then cry wolf and wimper and moan and try calling highly unfair when i suggest what a right Gonzo like the Pope, you also sometimes seem to be.

The way you see it of course is you feel as a big headed Christian, that you have the right to play ball by your underhand rules,and then when i play by mine own underhand rules some too, you cry not fair not fair....whaaa im telling my mummy ..im not talking anymore to you boo hoo

And this is your Christian view of whats honestly fair.Its Robs way or the highway.We play by your rules or you wont talk with us.

Thats just like the cult i was born into Rob.

See you try turning it around to being only me that has the problems with Robby .... But thats twisting it too! and so dishonestly untrue! isnt it Rob ...Because others here have had some of the "very same" problems with you too, havent they Rob ...Just let me know if you really need me to name a couple.

Rob R said...

See you try turning it around to being only me that has the problems with Robby.

Not at all. I see over and over again in personal discussions the axiom proven: the fool says in his own heart, there is no God, and so many others, such as if you correct a fool and you will be despised. You've said above you don't hate me. It's hard to see when you fill your posts with so much spite.

You can't talk to a fool. that's why I quite talking to so many atheists. Luckily, it's not an absolute. And that's why I will even entertain some of this including with you from time to time. People will change, so revisiting some ground has a point. But I'm so glad that sometimes it is good and reasonable to shake the dust off of one's feet and leave the table. I would like to be able to continue discussing things with you. But I don't know that you are ready or that there is a point, so chances are, I will probably have to shake the dust off my sandals again with you. I wish you'd prove my hypothesis wrong.

You see Gandolf, I find that you and several others don't even honestly consider what I actually say. You imagine I say much that I never did (I never said you were the only one, if you can get something this simple so wrong, and emphasize it big time as you repeated these posts, why should it be hard to believe that it is you who twist things). What am I supposed to do? Engaging with people who consistently make up half of your half of the conversation and then attack everything you don't even believe as if you did, and all the crimes committed by people who may only have only general common ground (one day it's witch burners, the next it's the catholic cover up of child abuse) is pointless frustration.

but it doesn't have to be this way. You don't have to look at everyone who doesn't agree with you on religion as if they were your family still under the influence of the cult. You don't have to have a dogmatic hatred for and rebellion from God. You can be open. The scales can fall off your eyes. But in the mean time, you judge me for doing what you do, twisting words and playing underhanded games.

Rob R said...

FYI, let me happily concede that Christian thinkers weren't the first to think up much that is virtuous. As a matter of fact, I very much find that highly important for a position on religion that I take called inclusivism.

Nevertheless, even for that which is not unique to Christianity, the emphasis is. And many humanitarian efforts in the world today or the degrees to which they are taken that may be secular today nevertheless were unheard of before the church aggressively pursued and founded those pursuits.