Showing posts with label "Outsider Test Links". Show all posts
Showing posts with label "Outsider Test Links". Show all posts

Definitional Apologetics, Excessive Skepticism, and the OTF

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[Written by John W. Loftus] Philosophers love to define words. It's a good thing too, since Aristotle said something to the effect that "Many a dispute could be solved in a few sentences if the disputants merely defined their terms." Sometimes though, in the hands of Christian philosophers the goal is obfuscation. They try to define away a problem for their faith. I call this Definitional Apologetics, and they are quite good at it. They will feign ignorance about what an extraordinary event is in the face of a concrete example, like a virgin birth or a resurrection from the dead. They will also feign ignorance about what the scientific method is to the point of claiming there is no such thing, even though science continues to progress, purportedly without one. And using Orwellian doublespeak they claim to have a "full-blown skepticism" where they are skeptical of skepticism, thinking this allows for their faith but blind to the fact it also allows for anyone's faith. This is all pure sophistry.

Along these same lines let me respond to one major objection to the Outsider Test for Faith (OTF), as stated in the comments of a recent post:
I think you’ll find that if you try to apply [the OTF] rigorously to every aspect of your life (not just the religious bits), you’ll soon discover what “analysis paralysis” is. You’ll be unable to entertain, even for a moment, any political, aesthetic or moral opinion or value, unless you can back it up by a complete chain of logical deduction from perfectly flawless axioms. Once you get addicted to the “test of skepticism”, *how will you know* where to draw the line and refrain from excessive skepticism? So my question about where to draw the line between healthy and excessive skepticism is a genuine one, not some sort of ploy by the christian-apologist-boogeyman ;) Skepticism is indeed a slippery slope – the question is where do you draw the line? Link.

The OTF Exemplified In Practice

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Here is a debate between Valerie Dennett an atheist, Zakir Deedat a Muslim, Greg Turkel a Christian, Hugh Talmage a Mormon, and Moritz Duam a Jew. This is what I'm talking about!

More Straw Man Arguments, This Time by David Marshall

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Christianity can only be defended by blind ignorance involving so many informal fallacies it can make one's head spin. Case in point today is David Marshall, a nice guy and budding scholar who has written a few books. I guess he was feeling left out since I have been highlighting these things with other Christian scholars. Now it's time to turn my attention to him. ;-)

More Hand Waving From Matthew Flannagan on the OTF

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[Written by John W. Loftus] Dr. (they hand out PhD's to anyone these days) Matthew Flannagan said: "As to the OTF you'll see I have pointed out that argument is incoherent." Really? No, Really? That's a very large claim of his, akin to the claim to have refuted it. I don't think in these debates of ours I would ever claim to have refuted an argument. Remember, the larger the claim is then the harder it is to defend. Does he know this? A refutation of an argument is a very difficult thing to produce. My response:

Victor Reppert Now Claims He's a "Graduate of the OTF"

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Reppert has been thinking and responding to the OTF longer than any other informed believer I know of, so if you are a believer and you object to the OTF then learn from him. When first confronted with the OTF Reppert criticized it as embracing too radical of a skepticism. Then over the years as I explained it to him further he now says he's a graduate of the OTF and wants a diploma. Cute. As far as I can tell most believers criticize the OTF when they first hear of it. Then they go through the same stages Reppert has gone though, by subsequently embracing it in the face of my arguments, basically wanting their diplomas too. Should I start printing them off and signing them just because they say so? First, here is what Reppert recently admitted:

An Open Question to Victor Reppert About the OTF

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I just cannot seem to disabuse him of his inconsistent position. He said:

What is the Outsider’s Perspective?

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Almost all of the objections to the Outsider Test for Faith (OTF) are red herrings placed in the road to sidetrack us from getting at the truth. They do not understand the perspective of an outsider, or they grossly misrepresent it in favor of faith. Since I like beating my head against the wall, let me try again.

Dr. Flannagan Denigrates Science, Why Am I Not Surprised?

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[Written by John W. Loftus] This is getting ridiculous and predictable. So let me get this straight, okay? In order to believe, Flannagan must denigrate science. Get it.? What utter rubbish. This alone should cause believers to question why they believe what they do based on their upbringing in a Christian culture. Science is the only antidote to how easily we can believe and defend what we were taught on our Mama's knees.

Believers Really Ought Not to Argue Against the OTF

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Because by doing so only makes my arguments stronger, and they were already strong enough. One continuing objection is to turn the OTF against non-believers, that we ought to subject our non-beliefs to the skepticism of an outsider. I've addressed this ad nausea. But let's see with a thought experiment why this does not work. Let's say there are no non-believers at all, none. Everyone on earth believes in a religion of some kind. Let's say no skeptic ever proposed the OTF either. Christian, how would YOU propose to assess religions fairly without any double standards? This is how you do it now. Surely at least one believer would come up with the thought that since he already uses the OTF in examining other religions then why not use it to examine his own faith? This reveals that if there is any inconsistency at all in the OTF it is how believers themselves assess truth claims. As I've said, it should only take a moment’s thought to realize that if there is a God who wants people born into different religious cultures to believe, who are outsiders, then that religious faith SHOULD pass the OTF.

Quote of the Day, by Articulett

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I agree wholeheartedly with his assessment of the OTF:

Debating Critics On The Outsider Test for Faith (OTF)

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[Written by John W. Loftus] I have had several debates in defense of the OTF. This post will serve as the key resource for these links.

First look at The Outsider Test for Faith, along with a link embedded within that post.

In no particular order here are several debates I've had about the OTF with several people:

Chris Gadsden who obfuscates on The OTF

Cameron Bertuzzi of "Capturing Christianity" .

EricRC, a Ph.D. student in philosophy, On the Fundamental Objection to the OTF.

Dr. Matthew Flannagan.

Dr. Randal Rauser.

Dr. Steve Lovell.

Dr. Thomas Talbott.

Dr. Victor Reppert.

David Marshall.

Thrasymachus.

Rev. Phillip Brown.

Steve Hays and Jason Engwer.

Paul Manata.

Is it over yet?

Dr. Flannagan Just Does Not Get it, The OTF Again and Again and Again...

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[Written by John W. Loftus] Christian philosopher Matthew Flannagan wrote a review of The Christian Delusion for Philosophia Christi, the journal of the Evangelical Philosophical Society. He offers nothing but canards against the OTF. Was he not paying attention?

The Outsider Test for Faith (OTF) is Not Hard to Understand

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When believers criticize the other faiths they reject, they use reason and science to do so. They assume these other religions have the burden of proof. They assume human not divine authors to their holy book(s). They assume a human not a divine origin to their faiths.

Believers do this when rejecting other faiths. So dispensing all of the red herrings about morality and a non-material universe, the OTF simply asks believers to do unto their own faith what they do unto other faiths. All it asks of them is to be consistent.

The OTF asks why believers operate on a double standard. If that's how they reject other faiths then they should apply that same standard to their own. Let reason and science rather than faith be their guide. Assume your own faith has the burden of proof. Assume human rather than divine authors to your holy book(s) and see what you get. If there is a divine author behind the texts it should be known even with that initial skeptical assumption.

So the OTF uses the exact same standard that believers use when rejecting other religions. If there is any inconsistency at all it is not with the OTF. It is how believers assess truth claims. For it should only take a moment’s thought to realize that if there is a God who wants people born into different religious cultures to believe, who are outsiders, then that religious faith SHOULD pass the OTF.

If Christians want to reject the OTF then either they must admit they have a double standard for examining religious faiths, one for their own faith and a different one for others, or their faith was not made to pass the OTF in the first place. In either case all of their arguments against the OTF are based on red herrings, special pleading, begging the question, the denigrating science, and an ignorance that I can only attribute to delusional blindness.

To read more on the OTF click here.

It's Time Once Again Boys and Girls for The Outsider Test for Faith

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[Written by John W. Loftus]
Let's try this one more time shall we? This time in short numbered points for the reading impaired:

God and The Outsider Test for Faith (OTF)

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Christian, if your faith does not meet the skeptical standard of the OTF then people who are born into different cultures cannot be rationally convinced to believe by virtue of being raised in their respective cultures as outsiders. Don’t tell me people in the Southern Hemisphere are converting. That’s not the point. The point is that God had to make Christianity pass the OTF, and if that’s so, why kick against the goads? Why not apply its standard against what you were raised to believe? Examine your own faith with the same level of skepticism you use when examining the other religious faiths you reject.

How Do We Know Christians are Delusional?

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Enjoy:

A Review of “Kluge: The Haphazard Evolution of the Human Mind”

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Gary Marcus's book, Kluge: The Haphazard Evolution of the Human Mind, is a body blow to religious belief. It performs a double service to us by showing how the evolution of our brain accounts for why we think so poorly, and in so doing goes a long way toward showing that religious belief is a product of this poor thinking. Very highly recommended.

Gary Marcus, professor of psychology at New York University, begins chapter one by saying: “If mankind were the product of some intelligent, compassionate designer, our thoughts would be rational, our logic impeccable. Our memory would be robust, our recollections reliable.” (p. 1). Instead, our brains evolved as a kluge. A kluge “is a clumsy or inelegant—yet surprisingly effective solution—to a problem.” Just picture a house constructed in stages by different contractors at later times and you can get the picture. The original bathroom might be extended, which in turn takes away some space from the living room, or an added bedroom which does away with the bathroom upstairs. Without starting all over with a completely new floor plan, we get a kludge

We’re Not As Rational As We Think, A Review of “Sway: The Irresistible Pull of Irrational Behavior”

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Sway: The Irresistible Pull of Irrational Behavior is wonderfully written by two brothers that highlights several areas where we humans are not as rational as we think. It has serious implications for religious believers. Let me explain.

Quote of the Day on the Outsider Test for Faith (OTF)

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There is an entry on the Outsiders Test at Iron Chariots. Here's the dilemma it presents for believers:
On the one hand, believers who object to the OTF look like a person who argues in a court room that he does not want a fair impartial judgment, but rather a biased one from a biased judge who operates on double standards.

On the other hand, believers who accept the rationale for the OTF have a great amount of difficulty in arguing that the raw uninterpreted historical data without any culturally adopted Bayesian "priors" leads the historian to the conclusion that Jesus bodily arose from the dead.

Another Failed Attempt to Disabuse Me of the Outsider Test for Faith

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David Marshall's latest critique of the OTF confuses the success of a particular religion with passing the OTF, which, if correct, would make contradictory religions true by virtue of being successful. And he falsely assumes there is one brand of Christianity. Hence this is no critique of the test at all. He raises some issues that need to be addressed, but that's all. The issues he raises are addressed by Richard Carrier in chapter two of my forthcoming anthology, The End of Christianity, titled "Christianity's Success Was Not Incredible." And I've already explained why Secular Humanism (or atheism) can't win (or be successful).