David Marshall's Challenge About Women Under Christianity

Recently I was reminded that Marshall has challenged me to debate whether Christianity has helped or hurt women:

Resolved: That the Gospel of Jesus has done more to help more women than any other teaching in the history of Planet Earth. I challenge you, John. I issue this challenge assuming that John is sincere, and because millions of other people agree with him that Christianity has harmed women terribly. LINK.

Marshall sounds just like Muslim apologists for their terrible track record against women though. I don't have to rehearse that record since Marshall agrees with me about it. But lookee here at a Muslim apologist for Women in Islam. As an outsider I see no difference between them in that both are attempting to whitewash away the facts.

Loftus also recommended three feminist books about how terrible the Bible was to me. But that's a lame response. My argument is historical, not primarily exegetical: that the Gospel of Jesus has in historical fact improved life for billions of women around the world.

Notice first, Marshall thinks that providing book references to read on this issue is lame. I'm at a loss to know what to think of this. If I were to engage him in this debate I'd be quoting from them. So why not just read them? Why is a debate needed when I can provide book references where those arguments are made by people who know the issue better than I do? Second, Marshall said these references were written by feminists, as if that discredits them as not being objective about the issue. In truth, these references come from biblical scholars and/or theologians. Third, Marshall wants to focus on Jesus in the Gospels rather than the whole of biblical revelation, or so it seems clear to me. Why exclude the Old Testament or the writings of Paul?

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Quote of the Day, by Thom Stark: "You Broke It You Buy It"

[First published 7/11/12]

So the news has just broken [March 14, 2012] that a Moroccan girl has committed suicide after being ordered by a judge to marry her rapist. Now before some self-righteous Christians begin mouthing off about how unenlightened Islamic culture is, let’s go to the source:

“If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged, and forcibly seizes her and lies with her, and they are caught in the act, the man who lay with her shall give fifty shekels of silver to the young woman’s father, and she shall become his wife. Because he violated her he shall not be permitted to divorce her as long as he lives.” Deuteronomy 22:28-29.

Now this law is often decried by religion’s detractors as barbaric and misogynistic. In fact, however, this law is designed specifically with the woman’s well-being in view.

Then comes the kicker:

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David Marshall's Newest Book

Christians have had different responses to the Outsider Test for Faith (OTF), probably because they don't know what to do with it. Christian apologists Norman Geisler, Victor Reppert, Thomas Talbott, Mark Hanna, Randal Rauser and Matthew Flannagan have all rejected it. David Marshall is inclined to embrace it, so I welcome that. He's agreed to shoulder the burden of proof. Now we need to hold him to that. His previous chapter on it can be found in True Reason: Confronting the Irrationality of the New Atheism.

I'm a bit curious to see what Marshall says that might be new in his book, but I can't find it on Amazon yet. Marshall writes about it here. What I'd like to know is how Randal Rauser can reject the OTF and yet endorse Marshall's book. In any case the Arizona Atheist wrote a nice review of Marshall's chapter in "True Reason" seen here.

A lot of atheists instantly embrace the OTF since it seems so intuitively obvious. What they don't realize is how much effort it takes to defend it from believers who are impervious to reason. What I predict is that when the OTF comes up in an online forum, Christians will bring up Marshall's book, or some other one, and say I've been answered. If you as an atheist intend to use the OTF, you had better know how to defend it. So you should read how I do so in my book, The Outsider Test for Faith: How to Know Which Religion Is True.I cover every major objection to it such that neither Marshall nor anyone else can even put a dent in its armor.

John W. Loftus Giveaway!?

"Religious Liars" will be giving away a copy of my most recent book, “Christianity is Not Great: How Faith Fails.” Sign in to enter. The site is run by David Johnson.

He has been an active humanist for nearly 20 years. Raised in a fundamentalist Christian home, he regularly questioned the role of religious beliefs in the routines of daily living. Having seen that religious beliefs were simply a byproduct of divisive, tribal mentality, he began actively engaging believers of various religions in an effort to disabuse them of their faith in favor of humanism, reason, and knowledge.

Gregory Dawes On The Philosophy Of Religion

Gregory Dawes is a philosopher and author of the excellent book, Theism and Explanation.Richard Marshall interviews him and introduces it with this:

Greg Dawes is a philosopher who always thinks hard about religion, about the nature of religious faith and its relation to reason, about why philosophy as a handmaid of theology is frivolous, about naturalism, about the epistemological variety and the ontological variety and the methodological variety, on why Christians can’t avoid the fact that Evolutionism contradicts the Bible, about what’s wrong with intelligent design, on what theologians should do, about why belief isn’t an issue and inference to the best explanation is, about claims about divine action, about the God of the gaps, about historicism and religion and about Maimonides and the limits to interpretation. Don’t be fooled, this one’s got razors…

I was particularly interested in what Dawes said about the philosophy of religion. The money quote is below:

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Two contributors to Christianity Is Not Great in interview

Myself, Jonathan MS Pearce, and author James A. Lindsay were both involved in contributing chapters to John's recent excellent addition to his growing number of titles. Last night I interviewed James on the subject of his second book, Dot, Dot, Dot Infinity Plus God Equals Folly. His book looks from a mathematical and philosophical angle of the notion of infinity and sees how well it fares in being applied, as is often the case, to God. Problems for the God-idea ensue. Well worth reading, the book features a foreword from the late, great Vic Stenger. During the interview, we get on to the subject of CING and touch on different atheistic ideas and areas of religion, including the psychology of religion.

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"It's Not the Islamic Religion, It's Their Culture, Stupid!"

That's the song and dance we're hearing quite a bit from the well-intentioned liberals. They think that since Islamic religion can be used to justify so many different actions, therefore Islamic religion isn't a factor in Muslim violence. Okay then, let me ask them some potentially tough questions intended to bring out the inconsistency of that position. Would you also say the same thing about Christianity, that it has never caused harm, nor does it now? Conversely, would you be willing to say Islam and Christianity never do any good? You cannot say the one thing without also saying the other. Can the introduction of religious ideas ever change converts to do and say things they would never do and say without the introduction of that religion? Moreover, does a conversion to a religion change anything at all in a person's beliefs? Lastly, is there any content to religion at all?

Gallop Poll: 21% Say the Bible is An Ancient Book of Fables

LINK. Conservative fundamentalists are losing this war.

Hemant Metha's List of the Best Atheist Books of 2014

My anthology "Christianity is Not Great" made his list. One wonders what his standards were for choosing them, but it's nice to be listed. LINK.

Ronald Lindsay On "Moses, Jesus, Mohammed and Company: The Critical Problem with the Prophet System"

Of the Exodus story he says: "It's a heroic myth not dissimilar to Greek or Roman stories about Heracles, Aeneas, or other heroes. If you're willing to believe that God would slaughter thousands of innocent children to punish a ruler for his decisions, then you're probably inclined to accept a plague of frogs." LINK.

It's Cyber Monday!

There is one painless way you can help support my efforts here at DC. Buy something, anything off Amazon.com. Usually I get about a 7% kickback. It helps. Thanks. I've been a bit sick the last few days but I'm coming back with righteous indignation. ;-)

The Full Text of Robert G. Ingersoll's "A Thanksgiving Sermon"

I used an excerpt of this sermon in Christianity Is Not Great: How Faith Fails.Here is the sermon. Full text below:

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“If you want to get rich, you start a religion.” L. Ron Hubbard

L. Ron Hubbard

HBO Has Hired 160 Lawyers in Anticipation of Their New Scientology Documentary


HBO is producing a new documentary on the Church of Scientology so explosive that the network has been forced to hire legal back up. "We have probably 160 lawyers (looking at the film)," HBO Documentary Films president Sheila Nevins tells The Hollywood Reporter."

Have a Happy Thanksgiving Day!

Through Atheist Eyes with Frank Zindler: Books By John Loftus

Bertrand Russell's Ten Commandments

Poster Child For Stupid! More Captions Requested.

Are You A Theist?

Lowder-Vandergriff Debate On God’s Existence Now Available

Mr. Jeff Lowder provides a nice write-up about his debate with Mr. Kevin Vandergriff, along with instructions for listening to it right here. I haven't listened to it yet, but I suspect Jeff did very well since that's his forte, so kudos to him! The issues they address are all important.

I just have one criticism. There is no such thing as Theism or Christian Theism or Mere Christianity. Until I find a group of "mere theists" who worship together at the same Basilica or Cathedral or Chapel or Church or Hall or Home or Altar or Tent or Temple or Synagogue or Mosque or Shrine then I'll see value in public debates over "mere theism." In the sane manner, until I find a group of "mere Christian theists" who worship together at the same Basilica or Cathedral or Chapel or Church or Hall or Home or Altar or Temple then I'll see value in public debates over "mere Christian theism." As one who majored in the philosophy of religion discipline, I see greater value in debunking the basis for all Christian theisms found in the Bible and the theologies based on it, along with the history of various Christianities and the harms they have caused. While we need all voices and arguments in our common cause, I think my particular focus is best if we want to disabuse Christians of their faith.

Derren Brown - Fear and Faith

In the first chapter of Christianity Is Not Great: How Faith FailsI mentioned this video having to do with the placebo effect of faith. It is extremely well-done and thought provoking. In the end I think the placebo of faith is something reasonable adults can do without. This is a program everyone interested in faith should watch.

I Bring You Church Today!

I bring you church today! Does anyone think these believers could be reasoned out of their faith (see below)? They aren't even interested in reading what atheists have to say! So I hold them up for ridicule instead, to anyone who might be undecided about them. Come on, do you really think this pastor can direct the Holy Spirit? If he can then why doesn't he do something more important than making people fall down and feel good? There are many sick people who need healing. There is world conflict to be solved. There are lots of natural disasters he could send the Holy Spirit to stop. But no, nothing here but the power of suggestion. Just think, unthinking believers like them vote!

Post by Tussevo Ruben Zayadiako.

More Praise From Jeff Lowder About "Christianity is Not Great"

He already wrote a nice blurb for the book. On his blog, The Secular Outpost, he additionally said: "I know of no other book which argues in such comprehensive detail that Christianity has caused so much harm in the world." I agree but then you'd expect me to. ;-)

Jerry Coyne Recommends My Book "The Outsider Test for Faith"

LINK. This is very gratifying for me to see.

Al Blazo Highly Recommends "Christianity is Not Great"

I met Al Blazo at the PA State Atheist/Humanist Conference a few months ago. He was one of the organizers, a passionate man dedicated to changing the religious landscape, one of the unsung heroes for reason and science. He sent me a note highly recommending Christianity Is Not Great: How Faith Fails.

I just wanted to say it is a terrific work. Thanks so much for bringing all those voices together in one handy book. I think the book is mis-titled though. Instead of "Christianity is Not Great: How Faith Fails" it should be: "Christianity is Not Great: Here's the Proof." As Dawkins said at the top of the front cover, it will change a lot of minds for those who "have the courage to read it." For certain. Anyone who could read the anthology and still wish to remain identified with the death cult that calls itself "Christian" is either brain dead or an apologist.

Quote of the Day, by Greg G

There are no bad reasons to stop believing the ridiculous.

I have actually made such an argument in four parts to be read beginning here.

"Does Religion Foster Generosity?" by Roy Sablosky,

This new paper for "The Social Science Journal" sounds interesting. Here's the abstract:

This paper reviews recent studies that claim to provide support, through statistical analysis of survey data, for the traditional proposition that being religious makes people more generous. The studies have serious shortcomings. First, the data consist exclusively of self-reports. Second, the dependent and independent variables are conceptually problematic and ill-defined. Third, even if there is a positive correlation between religious involvement and personal generosity, it may be due to selection bias. Thus, these studies do not provide serious evidence for the traditional hypothesis. Moreover, it has been directly controverted by experimental studies of economic and other behaviors. LINK.

Islam and Free Fall of Salon.com Into the Intellectual Abyss

 Every single time that I think the intellectually lazy leftist outlets have hit rock bottom in their brainless, Reza Aslan/esque defense of Islam (shall we call it "Islamophilia"?), they manage to stun me by smashing their own record of inanity. This time Salon.com again goes after Bill Maher for daring to point out the elephant in the room-Islam-as the root cause of violence committed by self-professed Islamic(!) militants (which would make up for over 80% of global terrorism, as it happens). But the "logic" of criticism against Maher is this time is downright insane.

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Dr. Kenneth Howell Asks US About Scientism

Dr. Howell is the author of God's Two Books: Copernical Cosmology and Biblical Interpretation in Early Modern Science.As a Christian he was kind enough to write a post-publication blurb of my anthology The Christian Delusion,saying, "I liked Richard Carrier’s chapter on science. I see within it hope for an advancement of knowledge. When dealing with the ancients, Carrier is superb."

Anyway Dr. Howell values my opinion and the opinions of the commenters here at DC enough to ask us all a question pertaining to an upcoming book. It's about the notion of scientism. I'll comment on it later, but for now, have at it. See if you can explain what it is and why you either embrace it or not. Provide links if you wish. Cheers.

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What's The Only Alternative To The Outsider Test for Faith (OTF)?

The answer? The Insider Test for Faith (ITF). How does the ITF work? Believers should test their faith against any evidence to the contrary, and against any perceived internal inconsistencies. That's not a bad test. It does work. It worked for me, and many others. But it has serious deficiencies.

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Examples of Ridicule

Recently I've defended the use of ridicule. Good ridicule must be based on some truth, otherwise it wouldn't be funny. It must also bring home an important point. Some of it is gentle humor while some of it is quite mean-spirited. Some people focus on ridicule while others focus on elaborately reasoned arguments. If you think ridicule is unbecoming of an atheist, or anyone for that matter, then you cannot like the comedy style of Stephen Colbert, Jon Stewart, Bill Maher, or even Jay Leno or David Letterman. Look at the following good examples and then try to honestly tell me ridicule has no place in our cultural wars. [Click on the tag "Ridicule" below for more on this topic.]

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An Excellent Example of Ridicule!

James Lindsay said theism is done, won't last into the future. Victor Reppert responded by saying a bit sarcastically: "Oh yeah, theism is losing adherents, it's down to 74% in the latest Harris poll." Then Lindsay, well, ya gotta read this short play:

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The Best Metapologetics Taxonomy

I'm writing a book on Christian apologetics, how to do it right, if it can be done at all. Several Christian apologists have offered their own classifications, or taxonomies, of apologetical methods, and like most things Christian, they cannot even agree on how to classify them. I won’t rehearse them here. Rather this is what I consider the best way to categorize metapologetics based on their primary approach in defending Christianity, using five headings: 1) Apologetics Based On Supposed Evidence; 2) Apologetics Based On Rationalistic Theistic Proofs; 3) Apologetics Based On Assuming That Which Needs To Be Proved; 4) Apologetics Based On Private Subjective Experiences; and 5) Eclectic Apologetics.

Does Religion Cause More Harm Than Good? Valerie Tarico Says Yes!

LINK.